Surf vs Skim

[G-MONEY]

You got it with......."I can impress the judges more with my riding on my stick than you on yours no matter what you ride."........Just because I swing a wood bat and you swing an metal bat doesn't mean I'm not going to hit more homeruns then you.......

I say the judging is subjective no matter what you do....so the winner should be who ever impresses the judges that day....

[Surfdad]

Hey Nick, thanks for your input...I'm glad you used the surface 3 example...let me give you Mike Armstrong's rebuttal...mike is a former pro snowboard and manufactures Calibrated boards. His position is that while the entry into a surface 3 is easier on the skimboard, that the exit, due to a much smaller fin and smaller surface area, is MUCH HARDER and so a surface 3 on either board is just as difficult and there shouldn't be ANY differential in scoring.

There is legitimacy to both sides and arguments on virtually every trick, but the truth of the matter is that certain tricks are almost impossible on a longer board or with boards with deeper fins. There are folks with a vested interest in one side or the other, obviously. To me, there are significant enough differences in the two styles of boards that it makes it very hard to judge the two when they are commingled...obviously it's easier when the trick is the same - the surface 3, but what about a HUGE top turn where the nose of the surfboard pokes out over the lip? Is that harder than a shuv? If so (or not) why? How do you explain THAT to a contestant that thinks he should have won?

I still think dogbert should volunteer.

[G-MONEY]

ME TOO....

[NICKYPOO]

Hey Nick, thanks for your input...I'm glad you used the surface 3 example...let me give you Mike Armstrong's rebuttal...mike is a former pro snowboard and manufactures Calibrated boards. His position is that while the entry into a surface 3 is easier on the skimboard, that the exit, due to a much smaller fin and smaller surface area, is MUCH HARDER and so a surface 3 on either board is just as difficult and there shouldn't be ANY differential in scoring.

There is legitimacy to both sides and arguments on virtually every trick, but the truth of the matter is that certain tricks are almost impossible on a longer board or with boards with deeper fins. There are folks with a vested interest in one side or the other, obviously. To me, there are significant enough differences in the two styles of boards that it makes it very hard to judge the two when they are commingled...obviously it's easier when the trick is the same - the surface 3, but what about a HUGE top turn where the nose of the surfboard pokes out over the lip? Is that harder than a shuv? If so (or not) why? How do you explain THAT to a contestant that thinks he should have won?

I still think dogbert should volunteer.

Hmmm, yes, I see your point. You are still left with how to divide the boards. Classify these for me.

HL Landlock
Awake Steath
CWB Tsunami
IS Red Tide
LF Custom

[dogbert]

Good points, ultimately, this should be decided by the manufacturers. Let them put their money where their mouth is by sponsoring events. It's going to force one of two things:

1. Manufacturers converge on a consistent 1 board design (albeit each with their own value-add)
2. Manufacturers align themselves behind a 2 board design and initiate events for both

And the answer is still no!

P.S. I've done product management and understand a fair amount about market dynamics. The big problem I see right now is that you don't have the momentum that wakeboarding does. However, that could change. If you do want to change the sport, then I'd enlist the help of the board manufacturers and let them help get it organized. After all, it's to their benefit to grow it.

[dogbert]

Now we need 3 divisions, skim, surf and hybrid.

Ok, ok, you can have your own division...does it always have to be about you?

[NICKYPOO]

Ok, ok, you can have your own division...does it always have to be about you?

From where I'm sitting...yes, yes it does.

Come on Dog. Step and do something besides break bones.

[Surfdad]

Nick, I know what you're saying - just the Stealth alone, it's a skimboard with two extra side bites. Does it by virture of the extra fins become a surf style board? I don't think so, so obviously the formula needs to take into consideration the majority of the classifying items, rather than a one exception and you're out. Perhaps that's the criteria? Two or more of these items and you're a skim style? Honestly I'm open for suggestions!!!! Or like I pointed out, delegating

I have to be careful on the manufacturer comments - Dave of WW sent me a boiler plate note indicated I might want to consider my attitude and behavior for the greater good of wakesurfing. AND NICK! I blame you! No personal responsibility on my end at all!

I have talked with representatives of the major and minor players alike. The REALLY big boys...just aren't impressed with our sport to the point that they'll toss money at it. Realistically as a spectator sport, it's not great. Who can blame them? I don't donate to every cause that approaches me either...I'd guess they'll wait and see if we survive, first. It has little appeal to the nonparticipant...if you've ever watched a shuv on a skimboard on video...it's just not that impressive, especially to the uninformed and when compared to say...Hee Haw reruns. The smaller guys...most are doing it as a side job, it's not their mainstay and so it's hard for them to have more than 1 or two models and to invest in R&D or different building technology is probably out of the question.

I would guess that one day it will become more, and more than likely it will develop like surf contests - shortboard and longboards separated into unique contests, but that won't happen until there is more interest.

[dogbert]

Just remember, ESPN broadcasts poker and bowling...'nuf said.

[NICKYPOO]

I have to be careful on the manufacturer comments - Dave of WW sent me a boiler plate note indicated I might want to consider my attitude and behavior for the greater good of wakesurfing. AND NICK! I blame you! No personal responsibility on my end at all!

Hehe, I got you a spanking for Christmas. Seriously though, sorry dude.

You're right though, to the non-participant, it doesn't seem like much. However, the number of non-participants shrinks every day. Exponentialy.

Hmmm, length limit. You might have something there. What would the cutoff be? 5'? 5'6"? 6'? It has to something simple like that if there is going to be a segregation.

[dogbert]

Hmmm, length limit. You might have something there. What would the cutoff be? 5'? 5'6"? 6'? It has to something simple like that if there is going to be a segregation.

Don't they have long and short board events for surfing now?

[NICKYPOO]

If you happen to be watching Hee Haw, pay close attention to the Pedal Steel player. Curly Chalker is the name and he is a BADAZZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeytmcYicxA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fmoH...elated&search=

[NICKYPOO]

I would guess that one day it will become more, and more than likely it will develop like surf contests - shortboard and longboards separated into unique contests, but that won't happen until there is more interest.

Dog- Ya gotta get off the dope son.

[Surfdad]

Nick, I think that Dave was attempting to be supportive, but it's HARD to create change without ruffling some feathers. What is that old saying? If you're a pioneer, you'll get a few arrows in the back. What concerns me is that folks that complain because I offend them in some sense, WON'T turn around and hand out accolades when I do something that they are in favor of. People are funny.

I have had a number of private emails and phone calls. Hate monger that I am. The response is about 50/50 on the split of the divisions. I had a good conversation with one individaul about the concept of a shuvit - his point was that if an individual can link 4 or 5 of them in a row, then that tricks isn't all that hard. It's like a bunch of linked top and bottom turns on a surfboard (yawn ).

There isn't ANYWAY that a skimboarder can throw a trick like the one in this picture of Josh sleigh, because of the difference in the drive of those HUGE fins. Now, in this picture, Josh starts the trick riding switch baskside and does a body varial to land on the board regular frontside. The air is HUGE. The problem is that it takes quite a bit of time to setup and execute this trick. Comparably, on a skimboard you can throw a number of smaller tricks, but without the amplitude. To me, if you can throw THIS one trick with that amplitude it should easily beat a set of 10 linked shuv's. Heck, it should beat a set of 100 linked shuv's because they aren't that hard...and due to the fin and drive issue...there isn't ANYWAY that a skimstyle board can do this same trick better or even CLOSE to the same way that a surfstyle rider does.

Has the Dog volunteered yet? What is holding him up?

[NICKYPOO]

So which group, surf or skim, has the beef with competing with the other group head to head? By your logic on the above trick, which I agree with 100%, the surf camp would have the advantage of speed and power and the skim would have the advantage of quickness and technical ability. So I guess my question would be...

...

...can't we all just get along?