Ski flag rules need to change

[Paul Middlemore]

Yesterday I was stopped again for having a ski flag up while I had a surfer behind the boat. Idaho has a rule that if the conditions of a towed skier (or like) is disengaged from the rope and in the water the flag must be displayed. If those conditions don't exist and there isn't eminent danger, one must not display the flag.

Last year I was pestered the same way when I had the little ones in the water with a tube attached to the boat but I was parked alongside the river and had the flag displayed to warn others.

This time I insisted for the deputies to write me a ticket as the law needs to get recognized that it is outdated and having someone not attached to the boat but being propelled by the wave isn't skiing in which the attached skier has the ability to avoid traffic. With a slow moving boat which really can't turn on dime (weight etc...) it invites the jet skiers to jump the wake which has happened in the past with distances at less than 20 feet. Air and electronic devices seem to warn them off but it is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

I really don't see the issue with advising other boaters that we have a surfer close behind our boat and there is a danger factor. Without having that flag up the oncoming boater or jet skier just sees a slow moving boat and might be invited to do something stupid.

Seems like just a waste of time to enforce a ridiculous violation in which there are many other violations occurring.

Keep ya posted when the court date comes about.

[Captainkurk72]

Missouri has same rule and we have a designated flag person. I wish we could just leave it up. Such a PIA. Update us on your day in court.


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[sandm]

spent many years on lucky peak outside boise(until '13). we never hoisted a flag unless there is someone in the water down. wording aside, that is the intent of the law. that body of water is extremely busy with weekend tubing/jetski traffic and never really had an issue.
I can see how you are being stopped as the skier is not "down". I am not sure you really have a leg to stand on to win as the only time you should be using the flag is if your rider is in the water down.
my .02 you are counting on a "technicality" and doubt that will do anything to change the laws. might get you out of a ticket that you really shouldn't have received.

good luck.

[007]

We leave the flag up all the time in Missouri and, knock on wood, have not been disturbed by our freindly water patrol.

[jeremiah.hough]

007 that surprises me because I have heard of people being pulled over for leaving the flag up. I would love to see MO law change so we can leave it up. That way it would warn other boaters to be cautious and look for skiers, etc. Putting the flag up and down is a PITA and can be dangerous if you don't have a flag operator and the driver is doing it. One more advantage of boating in Arkansas - no flag law.

[Ruger761]

No one runs flags here. Jet skis are suppose to stay away if you have a rider and then so far back if you don't have a rider (150 ft I think). New people don't follow rules very good until you chew on them or they get a ticket from lake patrol.

[007]

007 that surprises me because I have heard of people being pulled over for leaving the flag up. I would love to see MO law change so we can leave it up. That way it would warn other boaters to be cautious and look for skiers, etc. Putting the flag up and down is a PITA and can be dangerous if you don't have a flag operator and the driver is doing it. One more advantage of boating in Arkansas - no flag law.

Of course, I have a bright orange boat. Not sure if they see the flag (or if I even really need to put on up)!

[Thegerman618]

I come from a Law Enforcement background and I am 110% behind Paul on this one.....sort of. I agree that the regulation is out of date, again....sort of. I understand that the "What IF" can be applied to anything and a lot of it is based on the individual officer that stops you. There is a lot of argument in the Law Enforcement community over letter of the law and spirit of the law. This is the one of the situations, while the letter of the law is quite specific a REASONABLE officer should look at the intent of what the boat owner/captain is trying to accomplish by keeping his or her flag up on a constant basis. I bring this up as I am guilty of leaving my flag up full time while people are surfing behind my boat. Or whenever stopped with people in the water regardless and I have also been stopped by Lake Patrol and asked if I was "having an emergency" and to take my flag down unless actively doing watersports and a downed skier is in the water. Everyone has there own level of "safety precautions" as we should, especially on busy lakes, with kids, or people new to the boating environment. For experienced surfers/boarders and drivers and are well aware of how to make themselves visible in the water this isn't usually a problem but again goes back to individual "safety precautions" and what you are comfortable with. SO...really the question is "Does leaving my flag up full time really present a safety hazard/concern for other boaters?". Only you and Law Enforcement can answer that.

A change in the law would not be that difficult, however each lake has there own rules and regulations that are often more stringent that local or state laws. Working with whatever state, county, or HOA that runs your lake to cite new regulation for operation safety requirements would be much easier to accomplish than working with your local authorities who often have no control over who or when new laws are passed. That being said, implementing a regulation on a local lake that is easily understood and reasonable for all parties involved would take some coordination with not only whatever body of government governs the lake but you as the end users of the lake.

I agree that a flag should be used, and furthermore I think boaters in the area that see the flag out of common respect should slow down and throw a wave that they see the flag and will maintain a safe visual separation. This is all true on lake that are busy and the west coast owners familiar with Lake Havasu on a holiday weekend know what I mean. However, flip the coin over and those that have been or operate on lakes where they can go a whole weekend a see 1-2 boats all day the flag seems irrelevant, and I can understand that as well. Which bring me back to the working with the individual lake to cite new regulations that can be governed based on high traffic times, (I.E only in-effect on weekends, or by a sign located at the entry of a lake "FLAG RULES APPLY" that would delineate when the are required or not).

Sorry for the long winded reply but I hold this one close for personal reasons, I hope that for the safety of not only the kids but for everyone that something can be established not only as just another rule to follow. If it keeps one person from getting chewed up by a prop then that's good enough for me.

[duffymahoney]

Yesterday I was stopped again for having a ski flag up while I had a surfer behind the boat. Idaho has a rule that if the conditions of a towed skier (or like) is disengaged from the rope and in the water the flag must be displayed. If those conditions don't exist and there isn't eminent danger, one must not display the flag.

Last year I was pestered the same way when I had the little ones in the water with a tube attached to the boat but I was parked alongside the river and had the flag displayed to warn others.

This time I insisted for the deputies to write me a ticket as the law needs to get recognized that it is outdated and having someone not attached to the boat but being propelled by the wave isn't skiing in which the attached skier has the ability to avoid traffic. With a slow moving boat which really can't turn on dime (weight etc...) it invites the jet skiers to jump the wake which has happened in the past with distances at less than 20 feet. Air and electronic devices seem to warn them off but it is only a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

I really don't see the issue with advising other boaters that we have a surfer close behind our boat and there is a danger factor. Without having that flag up the oncoming boater or jet skier just sees a slow moving boat and might be invited to do something stupid.

Seems like just a waste of time to enforce a ridiculous violation in which there are many other violations occurring.

Keep ya posted when the court date comes about.

What part of Idaho?

[Paul Middlemore]

Okay gang, had my day in court.................................not guilty after 45 minutes of testimony.

I will do a full write up later with all the pertinent facts so if someone else in Idaho has the same issue, there is now some case law. By the way, I do come from a law-enforcement background which made presenting evidence in the court room a bit easier.

IDAPA 26.01.30 200 covers the skier flag but subsection 03 specifically states that the flag can be used "or when other eminent danger exists". That was the base for my defense and I went about collecting photographs and evidence to support my theory how that an on-coming vessel cannot see the surfer until right upon the vessel. Meaning the PWC that continually jump our wakes and get dangerously close to our boats are endangering themselves and my surfer with their reckless actions. As Idaho Code, Kootenai County Ordnances and the US Coast Guard do not have any listed warning device to indicate a detached person is behind my boat; we have to make do with warning devices that are closely related to our sport.

Anyway, it was challenging to educate the court as the Judge had no idea of the sport, so my preparation (photos) was well worth the effort. At one point she actually said, "This is silly." The prosecutors (yes two of them ganged up on me) actually didn't help their case as their arguments were not on point. At point they tried to relate to the law that it states when towing a rider one must have a flag. Well I pointed out we are not towing anyone. The majority of my riders start and end their run off the swim deck so therefore the law doesn't apply to us at all (which would be stupid not to have a flag). In fact on that particular run the rider did start off the platform.

They then tried to point out that since the flag was in a holder, we didn't comply with the law as it states "a person in the vessel shall immediately hold the warning flag aloft". Really guys, now you are stretching looking for any reason to win. Well, I dodged that accusation as we always run with two flags and on that date someone inside the boat raised the flag momentarily, realized there was no traffic and since the flag holder had the flag up, they dropped it.

At this point I figure the Judge was getting tired of listening to attorneys arguing about a silly law which doesn't really apply to our sport and so I shut up and figured I was ahead. Later during closing arguments, I stated that I was only trying to be extra safe and someone I ended up in courtroom.

[Paul Middlemore]

Forgot to add.....................

Ended up calling my attorney friend who agreed to assist in contacting the legislators in regards to changing / updating the law. I have to do all the legwork but it will be worth it as now I have a bit of case law to support my request.

[ericinmich]

Wow, makes me feel lucky we boat in Michigan, no flag law... And we have the most coast line in the continental US, and nearly the most lakes as well...

[Thegerman618]

GREAT WORK Paul M. I love when the judge is willing to listen to reason and actually explore the facts of the case. Sounds like you went it well educated and well informed on the law and your prosecution well....wasn't.