Contest scoring

[Surfdad]

Hey folks, I'd like to ask some input, if I may. We are about to finalize the NorCal INT League Wakesurfing series in August. My ultimate goal with this is to bring wakesurfing to the INT Nationals at some point. I'd also like to do the same with USA Wakeboard and the WWA, but I am further away with those two organizations at this time.

One of the issues that I am faced with is consistency in scoring wakesurfing contests. One way to fix that is to codify tricks and assign point values. Much like wakeboarding where a certain value of points is assigned a 180 and a halfcab.

What I invision is a book like document that illustrates the trick and gives a description of variations, then assigns a point value to that trick.

In your opinion, would such an endeavor progress the sport or is it a waste of time?

[Tequilasun]

What you need to do is write it so that you read the pages to about halfway through the book for regular riders.

Then you can flip the book over and read it to halfway through for goofy riders.

Like English/spanish dictionaries.

That would be cool.

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Tequilasun
What you need to do is write it so that you read the pages to about halfway through the book for regular riders.

Then you can flip the book over and read it to halfway through for goofy riders.

Like English/spanish dictionaries.

That would be cool.

Ok, back on topic.

I think a consistent scoring system that's easy to understand would definitely help. I think the reason wakeboarding got so popular is that you could do it behind most boats. Wakesurfing requires a more expensive inboard boat and there's far fewer of them.

Also, I think the thing that makes it grow more quickly is TV exposure. Not sure if you an get it part of the X-games or together with some of the televised surfing contests, but that would probably help.

[Surfdad]

I really can't offer an opinion on the roots of popularity of wakeboarding. I also wouldn't expect that codifying a trick list in wakesurfing would somehow magically create throngs of wakesurfers. What I do expect is that if you create competitions that are recognized on a national level, you legitimize that sport. So, if I can achieve national recognition at an INT Championship the sport moves from "uncle billy drinking a beer while he's surfing" to Jaime Lovett throwing a 360 shuv.

TV coverage is still years away, IMO.

[dogbert]

Originally posted by Surfdad
I really can't offer an opinion on the roots of popularity of wakeboarding. I also wouldn't expect that codifying a trick list in wakesurfing would somehow magically create throngs of wakesurfers. What I do expect is that if you create competitions that are recognized on a national level, you legitimize that sport. So, if I can achieve national recognition at an INT Championship the sport moves from "uncle billy drinking a beer while he's surfing" to Jaime Lovett throwing a 360 shuv.

TV coverage is still years away, IMO.

I totally agree on the rational behind codification.

As for TV coverage, if they can show Poker, why not wakesurfing

[Surfdad]

I talked with some folks from a production company when I was back at Surf Expo last September. They told me: "Your sport is gay" They explained that what makes something like "poker" TV material is that it's SLOW enough for folks to watch it AND there is an element of danger or risk involved. Think freestyle motocross - the backflip is incredible AND slow enough that you can see what's going on...PLUS the layman KNOWS it's difficult. A shuv-it is hard, but happens so quick that it doesn't make good TV and to the layman it just looks like a guy is jumping in place.

So what if we have large rolls of razor wire being thrown at the contestants as they are videotaped?

[NICKYPOO]

Hmmmm, how are you going to handle a trick that nobody has seen before? Surfing is such an individualized style type performance.
Here's what I think-

Scoring for each "wave or "pass":

How 'bout three judges. One for style, one for technical, one for use of the wave. Each judge gives a score (0-10) based on whatever particular aspect they happen to be judging. Those three scores are combined for an overall score for that "wave" or "pass". The one with the most points at the end of the day wins. Easy for the judges to score and easy for the contestants and fans to understand.

Scoring for a season champion:

How 'bout a simple points battle? For each event first place gets 10 points, second gets 8 points, third gets 6, fourth-5, fifth-4, sixth-3, seventh-2, eighth place and on get 1 pt. just for showing up. Most points at the end of the year wins. Once again, easy for everyone.

Let me know what you think.

[Surfdad]

This principally the system we use currently, but that is also the problem. It isn't consistent between locations, so if you ride in Alabamba and throw a surface 3 maybe you get a 10, because they haven't SEEN anything like that before, but you come to California and folks are doing stalled 3's, Ollie 3's and aerial 3's...so your hand draggin' surface 3 scores a 6.

Without the consistentcy between locations, the folks on a National level are telling me "forgetaboutit"

So, the only way I can see to make it consistent is to codify each trick. Basically, to remove as much of the subjective nature as possible. Further, if we codify the tricks we can easily "inform" or train judges with the publication.

As far as tricks no one has seen before, I think that at this level - we are talking INT League not the pro's, there isn't going to be a huge variety of "never before seen tricks". But like with wakeboarding, if you have something new YOU tell the judges to pay attention, so that they aren't caught off guard.

[tony dunn jr.]

It seems to me that you would have to have something in writing for the judges to go by. As the sport and the competitions grow it would not be long that the complaining starts because someone would say a certain judge just liked johny better than billy but maybe with a point value established this could not happen. my 02 cents.

[dogbert]

Originally posted by tony dunn jr.
It seems to me that you would have to have something in writing for the judges to go by. As the sport and the competitions grow it would not be long that the complaining starts because someone would say a certain judge just liked johny better than billy but maybe with a point value established this could not happen. my 02 cents.

Where's the Russian judge when you need them

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by tony dunn jr.
It seems to me that you would have to have something in writing for the judges to go by. As the sport and the competitions grow it would not be long that the complaining starts because someone would say a certain judge just liked johny better than billy but maybe with a point value established this could not happen. my 02 cents.

INT is always like that. There will always be contestants who think they got a raw deal.

[Surfdad]

I don't think poor sportsmanship is unique to the INT League - I've been to enough different events to know it's the nature of some folks to complain rather than be gracious...especially when losing. At the world's last year, which is a WWA event, a lady came up from Brazil to surf and didn't make the finals...she literally SCREAMED at the officals for 15 minutes...and when they stood their ground and she left, she was cursing them in her native tongue.

The INT League offers a rule book that contains virtually every trick for wakeboarding. They are divided by divisions: Novice, Intermediate, etc.
Each Trick on the Trick List has a name and typically a description, then a point value. As an example, on the Novice Tricks there is this entry:

Lip Slide - board slides sideways on wake crest for 3 seconds...200

That is pretty easy to judge and score appropriately AND it will get the same score at an event in Maine as it will in California. I can see the validity in what the national folks are saying. I have heard complaints that the sport is so young and dynamic that it will be impossible to codify the tricks, but so far, in my experience, at this level of competition the tricks are pretty limited. Little "Joey" in Kansas isn't throwing a Big Spin switch backside

[dogbert]

Maybe you should ask folks on various forums to help you compile a list of tricks. Matt Garcia could probably pin the list for you once completed.

Don't ask me...I'm still trying to learn how to free ride At this point, I need a Tsunami to get me going and, unless I get behind a tug boat, I'm not going to find a wake that big

[Tequilasun]

Originally posted by Surfdad
[B Little "Joey" in Kansas isn't throwing a Big Spin switch backside [/B]

I think you would be surprised. At least on my lake there are some people doing some pretty advanced stuff. There is no INT wakesurfing competition here that I know of. I guess that's why you are trying to get this going.

My experience with INT is that the best rider's in the area usually don't compete. But that's not a knock on INT. I think they do a great job, but it seems to become a travelling crew, where the directors family/kids/crew are the people most involved. With a few folks from the local scene thrown in.

So when this group rolls into town, there is a natural belief that they are "standing up" for each other, and the local guy is getting the shaft.

I don't really think this is the case, but you know how that goes.

Anyway..I would like a book of scorable tricks for Wakesurfing. As I've found out with my wakeboarding, some of the things I do are actually tricks!

[Surfdad]

Hey Tequila, we've traveled to virtually every part of the continental US competing in wakesurfing contests...in fact we leave Saturday for Minessota and have never felt any form of "local prejudice", BUT Judy and I have also expressed to James that the reality of life is that it exists. Accept defeat gracefully in public and bemoan the bums privately

I don't expect that if I can bring wakesurfing to the Nationals of INT League that it's going to drastically change anything. If there are folks throughout the country that are "killing it" as you point out, there really isn't any place for them to showcase their talents or to hone their skills by competing with folks as skilled as they are. To me the natural place for this is with the sanctioning bodies like INT, WWA and USA Wakeboard.

I HOPE to bring the sport of wakesurfing to the national events of ALL the major sanctioning bodies, but for now...we are focusing on the INT League as they are the most willing to take this risk.