Performance upgrades

[Germaine Marine]

So many variables... and you said you exhausted all prop options so i won’t even rehash that.

You want a blower and that’s awesome. The extra power is
Amazing , however. Sometimes you can get the hull beyond what any power will fix which is what mike and I subsequently have been trying to say. That power is only as good as the wheel you are going to use to efficiently transfer that said power to the water.

If the boat won’t plane with a crazy prop, then to me you have one of two issues.

1. The boat is incorrectly weighted
2 The Motor is hurt

My concern with your situation is that it seems like you are far off on one side of the equation.

Will the said blower Hp fix it? I don’t know but it seems like from what you are describing that we are talking about a big margin to overcome.

Yes the blower is nice... but let me tell you have had every current indmar package and trans.

When you stick weight too then especially the amount of weight you are using which inhibits the boar from planning correctly... their isn’t a blower out that will fix it.






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[UNSTUCK]

With enough weight and attitude, a hull will never plan or perform as desired.

This isn't the issue. The boat will plain out just fine and will cruise great when completely unloaded of ballast and while running a 1235 prop. And it will surf at 12mph with 5000 pounds of ballast just fine (despite high rpm's) with a 2937 prop. The hull shape isn't causing me problems, other than just being a BIG boat.

I had a cup adjustment on my prop to make it a bit taller and surfed right around 3900-4000. I cannot recall specifically what we did—might be able to find it in old emails.

And I basically never go over 25mph but I don’t recall that being a problem or excessively high rpm.

I do recall the cup adjusted prop being much better than the stock cup. If memory serves me we took it to .150 cup from .75? Which -sorta- makes it like a 15x12 in a slightly different way.

That is all a guess, I would have to look back to attempt to confirm.

I spent a lot of time with acme going over cup adjustment options and we concluded to stick with the available options to make returning props easier. And like you said adding a bunch of cup basically just takes it to the next pitch size.

So IF I am understanding you, you are keeping your bags full and your throwover 750 full, only dumping the tanks for a quick scoot?? So you have 2200 in the rear + 750 in a throwover?? Plus crew?? Total 3k+ and then not happy with cruising speed?? You want to smash around the lake in a 24' with that much weight then yeah, you need a few more ponies. Or you could just hit the empty switch. I could be missing something though.

My home town lake (Willard Bay - 4200') is very small. You don't cruise it. We fill up the three bags to surf and play with the hard tanks to see what happens that day. Usually the tanks are empty to surf. If we need to return to the dock while surfing we do our best to get over there. Never more than a mile or two. We leave the bags full and make sure the tanks are emptying as we go. Once we are finished surfing and pull out the tubes to play on we drain everything. With the prop we have on now (2419) we can tube at 21 mph at a much nicer rpm. Like maybe 4500 if I recall. Still too high though. In the example above when we were at Powell this summer we had one of the tracktor props on and trying to cruise the lake with no ballast at all was brutal, to be expected though. The 2419 is the total compromise prop. It can't pull full surf ballast, but does more than half. It will also cruise better than what we had. No matter what prop, I would need to get used to running above 4000 rpm's all the time. I'm not happy with that.

[freeheel4life]

This isn't the issue. The boat will plain out just fine and will cruise great when completely unloaded of ballast and while running a 1235 prop. And it will surf at 12mph with 5000 pounds of ballast just fine (despite high rpm's) with a 2937 prop. The hull shape isn't causing me problems, other than just being a BIG boat.



I spent a lot of time with acme going over cup adjustment options and we concluded to stick with the available options to make returning props easier. And like you said adding a bunch of cup basically just takes it to the next pitch size.



My home town lake (Willard Bay - 4200') is very small. You don't cruise it. We fill up the three bags to surf and play with the hard tanks to see what happens that day. Usually the tanks are empty to surf. If we need to return to the dock while surfing we do our best to get over there. Never more than a mile or two. We leave the bags full and make sure the tanks are emptying as we go. Once we are finished surfing and pull out the tubes to play on we drain everything. With the prop we have on now (2419) we can tube at 21 mph at a much nicer rpm. Like maybe 4500 if I recall. Still too high though. In the example above when we were at Powell this summer we had one of the tracktor props on and trying to cruise the lake with no ballast at all was brutal, to be expected though. The 2419 is the total compromise prop. It can't pull full surf ballast, but does more than half. It will also cruise better than what we had. No matter what prop, I would need to get used to running above 4000 rpm's all the time. I'm not happy with that.

Powell with a big flat wheel would probably not be a good time. The 2419 has been our go to lately so Id say you are right in there. Anything is possible with enough time and money. I guess the question to me is how happy are you with the boat as is, minus your gripe with power?? At what point are you winning I guess, if you go the boosted route?? Seems like unless you are really hooked on your boat it wouldn't be worth pouring 6k into a motor. Take your 6k that you wanted to spend and then add that to the sold price of your boat and I bet it equals a big ol down payment. Especially since you've previously stated that you like the performance in the newer Indmar package. If you aren't happy with the boat your in, you probably will never be no matter how much $ your pour into it. Unless I'm "missing the boat" and you love the boat a ton.

[dakota4ce]

Cup is a slightly different adjustment than pitch though—like I said it kind of simulates a higher pitch, but in my case it was exactly the adjustment that was needed. The equivalent pitched prop did not work for me, but the cupping did the trick.


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[Germaine Marine]

Again... so many variables. Someone at acme told you just to leave the standard cupping so you can return them? Whoever told you that is a goon. That’s a cost saving option not the correct one.

While increasing cup .40 thousands is equivalent to a 1 inch change in pitch.. the change in upper end etc and how the power comes on is where the difference is felt..

Put a blower on it.. it’s what you want to do and have made your mind up on being the solution. I would go that route.


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[UNSTUCK]

So many variables... and you said you exhausted all prop options so i won’t even rehash that.

The extra power is Amazing , however. Sometimes you can get the hull beyond what any power will fix which is what mike and I subsequently have been trying to say.

My concern with your situation is that it seems like you are far off on one side of the equation.

Will the said blower Hp fix it? I don’t know but it seems like from what you are describing that we are talking about a big margin to overcome.

I listed the props i've used. I think i covered boths ends of the extreme, from fast cruising, but wont surf to great surf but wont cruise. I'm kind of in the middle now. Is there a prop you would like me to try? Believe me, I'd much rather buy another prop than a supercharger!

I really don't know what you mean by saying "you can get the hull beyond what any power will fix". Do you mean I have too much ballast for the hull? If so a 15x11 prop proves that wrong. That prop will push this weight in this hull with the power I have just fine. Worked for Dakota too.

Powell with a big flat wheel would probably not be a good time. The 2419 has been our go to lately so Id say you are right in there. Anything is possible with enough time and money. I guess the question to me is how happy are you with the boat as is, minus your gripe with power?? At what point are you winning I guess, if you go the boosted route?? Seems like unless you are really hooked on your boat it wouldn't be worth pouring 6k into a motor. Take your 6k that you wanted to spend and then add that to the sold price of your boat and I bet it equals a big ol down payment. Especially since you've previously stated that you like the performance in the newer Indmar package. If you aren't happy with the boat your in, you probably will never be no matter how much $ your pour into it. Unless I'm "missing the boat" and you love the boat a ton.

We love the boat. We paid $55k for it last spring. We have been in a few different boats since then and they are all just small compared to ours. We looked real hard at that 2016 RZX you have for sale. Wouldn't have even considered it without the supercharger. But its over $100k! Jason has pushed a few RZX boats our way. $105-115k. Most have the 2:1 tranny which makes up for not having the supercharger. The Moomba Max was boring and smaller for $75k, and they wont customize it at all. The 2017 SE550 was AWESOME with a supercharger...and $117k. A taps 3 Z3 or R23 is smaller still and are at least $70k.
So sell a boat we are very happy with overall just to spend twice as much on a boat that will make us happy and sad in other ways? I can afford the payment on any of these boats. But just because I can doesn't mean I should. At this point I feel like spending $10k on a charger and slappers is a wise move. Stock 409 F24's are still listing for $65k in my area. Hard to believe I would take too much of a bath on these upgrades if I sold a year later. Certainly no more loss then if I was to buy any 2017 boat this year and sell it a year later.

Again... so many variables. Someone at acme told you just to leave the standard cupping so you can return them? Whoever told you that is a goon. That’s a cost saving option not the correct one.

While increasing cup .40 thousands is equivalent to a 1 inch change in pitch.. the change in upper end etc and how the power comes on is where the difference is felt..

Put a blower on it.. it’s what you want to do and have made your mind up on being the solution. I would go that route.

You can't really blame me for taking the Acme's guys word for it, right? I mean he should know? Why don't you pick a prop for me and tell me what to do with it. You know what I want. Think you can get my boat to do that with just a prop? At best I bet I won't see more then 2-300 RPM change while pulling the weight or while cruising. Still too high for me.



Thanks for the ideas and help guys.

[Germaine Marine]

I listed the props i've used. I think i covered boths ends of the extreme, from fast cruising, but wont surf to great surf but wont cruise. I'm kind of in the middle now. Is there a prop you would like me to try? Believe me, I'd much rather buy another prop than a supercharger!

I really don't know what you mean by saying "you can get the hull beyond what any power will fix". Do you mean I have too much ballast for the hull? If so a 15x11 prop proves that wrong. That prop will push this weight in this hull with the power I have just fine. Worked for Dakota too.

The 15x11 doesent prove anything wrong. Just because the prop you run is geared low enough to push a barge through the water at surf speed doesent mean the hull isnt overweighted and displaying the characteristics as such. A surf RPM of 4500-5k is really all the evidence you need. You can prop anything low enough to push through the water plowing at 10-11mph. There is a big difference between forcing a hull through the water that wont plane at surf speed vs the boat pushing over onto plane at surf speed. Big big difference. Maybe your boat is planing fine, not sure. But the numbers dont jive.

We are going to differ in opinions here so... but dakota was 1k lbs lighter, surfed at a really nice RPM, and didnt have any of the hull characteristics you are getting. Is the elevation a factor? Absolutely, but the bigger factor is you are running around with 5k lbs in a boat at 5k feet that isnt known to be the most efficient big boat through the water. The boat is so heavy its spinning that prop out of the water at a tune of turning 4500---5k RPM at surf speed. I mean, seriously. Short of hammering the throttle down at takeoff and forcing the boat into that type of orientation which is absolutely possible and actually super common, I tend to think you are either over weighted, not weighted correctly or the motor is hurt. Ill stand by that until you slap a blower on it and we see the diff. Thats just a whole lot of what iff to spend what? 10K? and at what expense efficiency wise? 15GPH?

[Bakes5]

Yeah....kinda hard to ever go to smaller boat. And $55-$65K is the sweet spot for a nice boat.

I've come to the conclusion that ballast is just a pain in the butt. Those wakefoils look at least as fun as regular surfing and you can do it on much smaller waves. Wakefoil is #1 on my list for this summer

Soo...My recommendation is to screw the heavy ballast, use a smaller wave and have a much better time on a wakefoil.

[Germaine Marine]

Im not going to pick you out a prop because Im not anyones you know what... JK. I would totally help you but you and I both know that you have already decided that whats best is to go a blower, so you should do it. No one here is going to sway your mind, you have gone through all the work and the process and know your setup and have determined that a blower is the fix. You should stick by that.

Just know that other boats just like yours without a blower surf all day long at elevation with 4k lbs of total ballast and do it while having decent Rpm/cruise speeds. I would tend to want to figure that hiccup in the equation first before wanting to go up a hundred HP in hope of an instant fix.

Spending 10k on a blower on that boat is going to be a massive loss down the line. As long as our are ok with that then I would say go for it.

[dakota4ce]

Find a 2015 SE550, remove the factory surf system, replace with GSA, and have yourself a damn surf monster.


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[dakota4ce]

Or just use your fabrication skills to make larger tabs like 2016. That would be very easy and you would get exactly what you went on a demonstration of. For like 80,000.


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[Bakes5]

FWIW....my Z3 with 440 raptor, 14 pitch prop, 3000 water, 500 lead and 6 people would not plane.

Can you be really clear on the 5000RPM at 22 mph cruise situation? I initially though that was unweighted, small crew. But it sounds like it might be 3000 pounds ballast. If that's the case then I'd say your about right.

[bsreid]

Wow it’s amazing how elevation has a play in performance.

Friends of ours Z3 with the 343 and more ballast than bakes has absolutely no problem getting up to speed. I don’t know the prop he has, but I know that he called acme and they set him up.

[Bakes5]

^^^I May have had the ballast too far back that day...don’t know. Only time that has ever happened. I have no problems getting up to surfing speeds with the the same loading and setup. I just know that I gunned it and it kind of hit 15 mph and just hovered there. Hit the ballast drain and eventually it came onto plane and did just fine. 12 or 13 pitch prop is the ticket for ballast at elevation.

Anywho...I hate ballast.

[UNSTUCK]

The 15x11 doesent prove anything wrong. You can prop anything low enough to push through the water plowing at 10-11mph. There is a big difference between forcing a hull through the water that wont plane at surf speed vs the boat pushing over onto plane at surf speed. Big big difference. Maybe your boat is planing fine, not sure.

We are going to differ in opinions here so... but dakota was 1k lbs lighter, surfed at a really nice RPM, and didnt have any of the hull characteristics you are getting.... I tend to think you are either over weighted, not weighted correctly or the motor is hurt. Ill stand by that until you slap a blower on it and we see the diff. Thats just a whole lot of what iff to spend what? 10K? and at what expense efficiency wise? 15GPH?

I guess I didn't realize our boats are supposed to plane at surf speed. Just the opposite, in fact. I'm not sure what mine does, but I don't think I'd call it being on plane. I think Dakota was running 5k lbs of ballast. He'll have to chime in on that. But he did say he was never out cruising around pushing for a high speed. I'm sure all our surf boats are "overweight" when ballasted. That's no surprise. I thought the trend was 5k plus in these larger boats. Supra is getting close to that as factory weight in the SE. When I was propped to allow the use of all 5k the boat felt fine. MUCH better than our 21v felt with half that weight.

Yeah....kinda hard to ever go to smaller boat. And $55-$65K is the sweet spot for a nice boat.

I've come to the conclusion that ballast is just a pain in the butt. Those wakefoils look at least as fun as regular surfing and you can do it on much smaller waves. Wakefoil is #1 on my list for this summer

Soo...My recommendation is to screw the heavy ballast, use a smaller wave and have a much better time on a wakefoil.

I like the idea of the wake foil. Looks like a ton of fun. I have heard that injuries are popping up more and more on them. People just tend to find the foil during a fall. Kind of has me shying away from them, for now. I do agree that we need to focus more on other water sports though. Surfing isn't the only game.

Im not going to pick you out a prop because Im not anyones you know what... JK. I would totally help you but you and I both know that you have already decided that whats best is to go a blower, so you should do it. No one here is going to sway your mind, you have gone through all the work and the process and know your setup and have determined that a blower is the fix. You should stick by that.

Just know that other boats just like yours without a blower surf all day long at elevation with 4k lbs of total ballast and do it while having decent Rpm/cruise speeds. I would tend to want to figure that hiccup in the equation first before wanting to go up a hundred HP in hope of an instant fix.

Spending 10k on a blower on that boat is going to be a massive loss down the line. As long as our are ok with that then I would say go for it.

If it hasn't been make clear yet, I would love to NOT run a charger. I'm still very open minded. A 2:1 transmission is still an idea I kick around, but I'm having trouble getting the information I need on them. Do you really think there is another prop or a prop mod out there that will have me surfing at 3000 rpm's loaded with ballast? I don't think another prop will drop me 1000 RPM's if the four I've picked so far aren't changing things more than a couple hundred. That couple hundred rpm's is the difference between full ballast and half ballast. I won't even talk about a cruise speed though. My boat is clearly limited to about 2500-3000 pounds of ballast at my elevation. That makes for a wave that I'm not having a lot of fun on. My small kids love it.
Just to clarify. The blower will cost $6k at the most. Maybe a lot less too, if I get lucky. The other $4k in upgrades will come from a built surf system and plumbing in the rear ballast bags. Also some gel coat repairs I want to make. It would be foolish to expect to get all this money back when I do sell the boat down the road. So don't think I expect that. You kind of suggest the boat will actually be worth less with these mods done. Are raptor Superchargers going for less than, say, a 440 engine in the used market? I don't know.

Find a 2015 SE550, remove the factory surf system, replace with GSA, and have yourself a damn surf monster.... Or just use your fabrication skills to make larger tabs like 2016. That would be very easy and you would get exactly what you went on a demonstration of. For like 80,000.

I would do that in a heartbeat. SE550's aren't anywhere close to $80k though.

FWIW....my Z3 with 440 raptor, 14 pitch prop, 3000 water, 500 lead and 6 people would not plane.

Can you be really clear on the 5000RPM at 22 mph cruise situation? I initially though that was unweighted, small crew. But it sounds like it might be 3000 pounds ballast. If that's the case then I'd say your about right.

With the 2937 prop we were cruising around Powell this summer totally empty ballast, but we had 6 adults and 7 small kids. 5000 rpm's give or take and around 22 mph. We were not limited at this point. The boat would have instantly jumped to to the rev limited and we could have gotten a few more mph out of it. I was choosing to keep it at or under 5k.