ANGRY at PCM Engine Group...

[IDBoating]

Being told that it will happen and then following the rules and then finding out it won't happen that way

The thing is, this is really easy for PCM to solve! It's not like "We promised you a specific boat, but we accidentally shipped it to someone else and now it's gone and there's nothing we can do about it." It's just another copy of a standard service manual they already have.

PCM can fix this. Just sell me the service manual like they promised. It's really that easy, and it would show good faith on the part of PCM to keep a promise to a customer.

[IDBoating]

I was under the understanding that you had gotten everything that PCM has available to their customers. So i apologize for what i have said, and i guess rant on there is nothing more i can do here.

I understand your frustration. I share it, believe me.

By the way, there might be something you can do here. This is straight from this thread:

The dealer that you are purchasing the boat from will be able to order the service manual for you.

Maybe as the selling dealer you will have more effect than my local dealer. After all, PCM themselves has said right here that you can order the service manual for me.

So I'm following their instructions and formally requesting that you order an EX-343 CAT factory service manual for me. Can you do that? Please let me know.

Thanks!

[lightning59]

the folks at skidim.com are hooked up pretty tight with the folks at PCM, give them a shot..just a thought.

[91Terminator]

I understand your frustration. I share it, believe me.

By the way, there might be something you can do here. This is straight from this thread:



Maybe as the selling dealer you will have more effect than my local dealer. After all, PCM themselves has said right here that you can order the service manual for me.

So I'm following their instructions and formally requesting that you order an EX-343 CAT factory service manual for me. Can you do that? Please let me know.

Thanks!

Ill let ya know.

[IDBoating]

Ill let ya know.

Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it. Nobody wants to resolve this more than me!

[mneal]

This is an interesting thread. I have bought a factory manual for every complex mechanical thing I have ever owned, even while under factroy warranty. Knowledge is power. I have no idea why PCM would make such a policy. If a shade tree guy wants to buy a service manual and have at whatever task they choose to tackle with gusto and ultimately do more harm then good why is that their (PCM) concern? If I screw it up and then take to it to Dom or whomever to fix it the failures I caused are simply not covered, it's easy. I have to admit, I am not in them market for a new power plant(or boat) but this policy would negativity effect my likelihood of owning a PCM powered product.

Dom, you are by far above and beyond well above the "average " dealer/technician. I mean no disrespect to you personally and I wouldn't hesitate to have you perform any duties on anything I owned. You have earned that trust and respect thru your actions but my general belief is nobody typically cares about my "stuff" as much I do (the guy who owns it). You know what they call the stupid guys that BARELY graduated from a substandard medical school? They call him/her doctor and that fact is paramount until trust is proven. Same holds true for a marine tech, plumber, electrician, etc. I had no idea your wife was an ME. I am one of those engineer types and I would challenge you to gather up a handful of those "factory trained " PCM guys (not you or your guys, I am speaking generically) and lets do a systematic troubleshoot and/or problem solving test. Maybe me and WABoating are the rare cases but to say I am not "worthy " of owning technical information related to a product I purchased is ridiculous.

Sorry for the rant, the pile on to WABoating asking for information irritated me and besides...there is not much on TV. :-)
:-)

[skyski_tige]

The thing is, this is really easy for PCM to solve! It's not like "We promised you a specific boat, but we accidentally shipped it to someone else and now it's gone and there's nothing we can do about it." It's just another copy of a standard service manual they already have.

PCM can fix this. Just sell me the service manual like they promised. It's really that easy, and it would show good faith on the part of PCM to keep a promise to a customer.

Dude... Again... you probably would have done better if this was not so public. You are just digging deeper and deeper. If there is an issue in the future, I would not expect for them to bend over backwards to help you. You are starting sound like a big whiner...

It would be funny if you got the manuals and then there was a typo and you did something stupid and killed your boat...

[Fiveflat]

I'm the Pilot. hmm...don't know what I said that would make you think WABoating is the Pilot. But I have tried to relate what I face in the commercial pilot world and trying to have a better understanding of mechanical things and how WABoating's experiences have been. How I have had to let the deadhorse go and just accept what is, is what it is. I am not saying a disagree with WABoating's complaints but I can also see PCM's side of the issue.

As a pilot we are trained from the first day to know the details of most everything. Then as you move up, things sometimes change and you can't get all you think you need or all you want to know about when you want it. The reason we are like this as pilots is when we sit down and get tested, it's an "anything goes" test. It's like being tested on everything you learned from grade 1 to present day. It's a very humbling experience. So when I (pilot embo) am asking for info it is to save my own a?? so I don't look like a fool. I can totally understand WABoating's idea of wanting to know all he can about the engine.

I have also indicated, gently that WABoating might want to ease off just a little. I understand completely his frustrations. Being told that it will happen and then following the rules and then finding out it won't happen that way or maybe not anyway. Seems like there might have been some miscommunition between WABoating and Tige/PCM. This happens, I just hope WABoating can release the strangle hold on this issue, learn all he can, share with us what he finds (because he does seem to be pretty knowledgable or at least askes some good questions) and enjoy the heck out of that awesome boat he just purchased.

We all have our demons guys...remember that.

Please let me know if I can clarify something I have said here or past. I don't want to give the wrong impression. I wish the Tige Family wasn't so spread out across the Country so we could enjoy sharing ideas and issues in person. But then it's good too that we are because that means Tige is hopefully growing and becoming more popular.

No no, WA has referenced aircraft in another thread and this thread when he mentioned "gentleman pilots"
But as you know, pilots are not allowed to do anything more than simple preventative maintenance on their own aircraft unless they are a certified repairman.
I just assumed that his references meant he was a pilot as well.

[zad0030]

All of this over a stupid booklet.

What is the life or death situation that you need the service manual for anyway? Why isn't the user's manual good enough?

[Fiveflat]

All of this over a stupid booklet.

What is the life or death situation that you need the service manual for anyway? Why isn't the user's manual good enough?

Just for the heck of it, I went to PCM's site and flipped through their 83 page maintenance manual on the 343. I was very impressed with what was in that manual for being a "simple" owner's manual.

[dom w. forte]

Are you looking for mechanical, or computor related items, state which part of the power plant you are interested in?

[dom w. forte]

This is an interesting thread. I have bought a factory manual for every complex mechanical thing I have ever owned, even while under factroy warranty. Knowledge is power. I have no idea why PCM would make such a policy. If a shade tree guy wants to buy a service manual and have at whatever task they choose to tackle with gusto and ultimately do more harm then good why is that their (PCM) concern? If I screw it up and then take to it to Dom or whomever to fix it the failures I caused are simply not covered, it's easy. I have to admit, I am not in them market for a new power plant(or boat) but this policy would negativity effect my likelihood of owning a PCM powered product.

Dom, you are by far above and beyond well above the "average " dealer/technician. I mean no disrespect to you personally and I wouldn't hesitate to have you perform any duties on anything I owned. You have earned that trust and respect thru your actions but my general belief is nobody typically cares about my "stuff" as much I do (the guy who owns it). You know what they call the stupid guys that BARELY graduated from a substandard medical school? They call him/her doctor and that fact is paramount until trust is proven. Same holds true for a marine tech, plumber, electrician, etc. I had no idea your wife was an ME. I am one of those engineer types and I would challenge you to gather up a handful of those "factory trained " PCM guys (not you or your guys, I am speaking generically) and lets do a systematic troubleshoot and/or problem solving test. Maybe me and WABoating are the rare cases but to say I am not "worthy " of owning technical information related to a product I purchased is ridiculous.

Sorry for the rant, the pile on to WABoating asking for information irritated me and besides...there is not much on TV. :-)
:-)

I never stated that anybody doesnt have the right to work on what ever product they own, I could care less, in fact it ussually makes me more money on a job, I was merely pointing out that if something gets messed up due to medling dont expect the manufacturer to be responsible even if you followed what you believe their shop manual instrutted, point in question was when WA BOATING changed a sensor on his engine as he stated, but I didnt see where he confirmed that it was bad first, and if their was a root cause for its failure.

[dom w. forte]

MNEAL as to my wife being a mechanical engineer , she has been in the power industry for 35 years , and gained the knowledge and experience to be quite good at what she does, but she also knows what her limitations are, as do I , all I was saying is to many engineers in various different fields, think they can fix anything, but dont have the experience to do so.
Just like in my field there are parts changers and problem solvers, we try to fix the problem and also find out why the failure occured, but I dont profess to know anything out of my expertise, thats why I wouldnt tackle something that I dont have experience with.
The funny part is a good mechanic, is an engineer, because if you dont understand how something functions , your usually a parts changer.
As for WA boating im trying to find out what info hes after, mech, or elect, or both, as for how he uses it I dont care was just giving an opinion.

[IDBoating]

As for WA boating im trying to find out what info hes after, mech, or elect, or both

I'm looking for the documentation that would be used by someone in your shop to diagnose and repair the 2009 version of the EX-343 CAT engine. To me, that means theory of operation, troubleshooting diagrams, nominal electrical measurements with tolerances, torque specs for fasteners, exploded diagrams, etc. In other words, a typical "shop" manual. If PCM breaks down catagories or subsystems into multiple manuals (mech, electrical, etc.) I'd want all of them. Normally those are chapters in a single manual but I can easily understand how they might be separated for convenience of reference or updates as things are updated during the production life of an engine.

Thank you very much for your help!

[IDBoating]

when WA BOATING changed a sensor on his engine as he stated, but I didnt see where he confirmed that it was bad first, and if their was a root cause for its failure.

That particular sensor has a history of failure. (In addition to learning everything I can, I also track the history of the systems around me... their track record in the industry, common failure modes, etc. That's why I jumped to that sensor so quickly.)

However, its failure is usually reported as sudden or catastrophic. In my case, it appears that the sensor started to deteriorate gradually because the onset of symptoms was gradual.

Given this experience, I suspect that many of the sensors DO fail gradually, but the owners aren't sensitive enough to the subtle changes in engine operation to notice. By the time the symptoms are serious enough to attract their attention, the sensor has "completely" failed and that's how it gets reported.