ANGRY at PCM Engine Group...

[IDBoating]

Good luck with the CBTs (computer based training), you will probably have more questions answered there than here.

I still don't have a contact name.

And frankly, I'm hoping Forte can just order me the manuals.

[IDBoating]

Will they sell you the manuals if you take their training courses?

First (and very quick) response I have from PCM is "that training is only available to dealers, not the public". They are asking around to see if an exception can be made.

Dom, if you have a contact there, it would be really helpful.

I've never had so much trouble giving more of my money to a company.

[thtrog]

First (and very quick) response I have from PCM is "that training is only available to dealers, not the public". They are asking around to see if an exception can be made.

Dom, if you have a contact there, it would be really helpful.

I've never had so much trouble giving more of my money to a company.

I don't think it's about the money....

[IDBoating]

I don't think it's about the money....

I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek there.

It SHOULD be about Customer Service. But apparently it's not.

[embo]

WABoating...

all due respect...you eluded to some issues you might have in another thread when you first started posting...they are showing up really well in this thread. Go easy...pace yourself and enjoy the fact you have a great boat, with a really good engine. Take care of what you know, which sounds like more than the mere mortals that generally operate these boats, and I am sure you will have years of pleasure with your boat. And in time, even without the manuals, you will have a vast amount of knowledge that you can share with the rest of us. Count to 10 and breath

[IDBoating]

Go easy...pace yourself and enjoy the fact you have a great boat, with a really good engine.

I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate the thought. But I have a saying: "Take good care of your equipment and it will take good care of you." The more you know about your equipment, the better you can take advantage of its features, and maintain it, and enjoy it.

I'll give you a perfect case in point. Last weekend, I noticed my jetboat's engine was putting out a bit of smoke. Nothing much, I see worse every day on the lake, but I know it's unusual for this engine.

Because I have extensive knowledge of that Mercury engine from reading the service manuals, I know that the port head temp sensor is used by the ECU to control fuel injector pulse width. It occurred to me that if that sensor were having problems, the ECU would dump excessive fuel into the cylinders, and that could cause this exact symptom. So I took a couple of minutes and swapped out the sensor for a new one.

Bingo! No more smoke, I regained a couple hundred RPM's at WOT, and my top speed bumped up by 3-4 MPH. In other words, the engine had been running rich because the sensor was lying to the ECU. I had been paying for that in excessive fuel consumption, substandard performance, probably increased fouling of plugs, etc.

I'd rather be running rich than lean, of course - but I'd REALLY rather be running properly. That's best for the engine, gives me the best fuel mileage, etc.

If I didn't have the service manual, I wouldn't know enough about this engine and its sensors to have thought of that possibility. It wasn't bad enough to take to a dealer, so I would have left it alone - and thus been running the engine out of spec for who knows how long. Instead, because I DO have the manual, I was sensitive to how the engine should work... I knew what could cause this behavior... and I knew how to check it.

It's remarkable to me that PCM does not want to have educated customers.

[chpthril]

It's remarkable to me that PCM does not want to have educated customers.

They must be run by the same gang running our country


OK, just kidding PCM

[skyski_tige]

Good grief... Sounds like Mr. Forte is your only hope at this point, which is really funny as that is who you should have started with in the first place!

Ps for the jetski boat example... Did you already have the sensor in the boat? :-)

[IDBoating]

Good grief... Sounds like Mr. Forte is your only hope at this point, which is really funny as that is who you should have started with in the first place!

I'm hoping. I've asked him a couple of times but haven't received a response on that question yet.

Ps for the jetski boat example... Did you already have the sensor in the boat?

I have collected a few spare parts over the years when convenient, "just in case". I have a couple of spark plug CDI modules, a trigger coil, etc. I picked up a couple of sensors from a guy who parted out his boat when his insurance company totaled it, and this was one of them. Worked out well, eh? {grin}

(And by the way, it's not a "jetski boat". It's not a glorified jetski with one of those little screaming mosquito jetski engines. It has a fuel injected V6 coupled to a real jetdrive. No {gag} plastic parts in sight!)

[Timmy!]

If I were PCM, I wouldn't sell you a manual while you are still under warranty just because of the scenario you stated above where you swapped out the sensor. So YOU swap out the sensor or something else while it's under warranty and you install it wrong and then expect them to warranty it because you read how to do it in their manual. Just because you can read a manual does not make you a qualified service tech. No offense but I can tell from the things you post here that you are the type that would want them to back that warranty even though you had your hands in there screwing around with it.

[IDBoating]

No offense but I can tell from the things you post here that you are the type that would want them to back that warranty even though you had your hands in there screwing around with it.

If I used PCM parts, and followed their procedures, and had the receipts to prove it - yes, I'd expect them to honor the warranty. But if it were within the warranty, I'd just take it to the dealer anyway... so the point is moot.

The key element you're missing here is that the manual helps you to know WHEN to take it to the dealer for warranty attention. As in my jetboat example above, without the manual I wouldn't have been so sensitive to the engine's proper operation. And were it still within warranty, I'd have taken it to the dealer.

[Timmy!]

My point is, you are not a certified PCM tech and as such PCM should not be required to cover the parts, labor, etc or extend warranty coverage. Are you a mechanic by trade with other certifications or just a shadetree mechanic like the rest of us?

[IDBoating]

My point is, you are not a certified PCM tech and as such PCM should not be required to cover the parts, labor, etc or extend warranty coverage. Are you a mechanic by trade with other certifications or just a shadetree mechanic like the rest of us?

Shadetree, if that. {grin}

I've already agreed if it's within warranty, it should be taken to a dealer. What more are you asking me to say?

[embo]

I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate the thought. But I have a saying: "Take good care of your equipment and it will take good care of you." The more you know about your equipment, the better you can take advantage of its features, and maintain it, and enjoy it.

...

It's remarkable to me that PCM does not want to have educated customers.

I totally agree 100%. I probably wouldn't get in as deep as you into the how to's but to each his own. I do pride myself and knowing what things sound, ride, handle, stop, start etc and after some time I get to know the equipment pretty well. So while I may not know the sensor name or location or even that it's a sensor, I will know something isn't right and either come on here and ask someone like you who reads manuals for pleasure or call the mech and ask them. But I could probably save myself money if I knew a little more that is for sure. I can really appreciated you wanting to know as much as you do.

I, as well, find it interesting they don't want to share the manuals with you. But I have run into this as a pilot trying to find out answers to mech questions for myself. But usually there is an "inside person" who you finally get a hold of and get the "secret doc" from.

Keep digging WABoating....as I have said before, I am enjoying what you are communicating to the rest of us and finding your ideas interesting...if nothing else.

[dom w. forte]

I am checking on manuals for your application, but I too am concerned with your usage.
I would not stand behind warranty of a product that a customer had the manuals and used the proper parts and istalled himself to factory spec and still possibly might of fixed said problem or created another.
As you stated about your mercury V6 that you changed exhaust temp sensor, question did you do the diagnositic test procedures to confirm it was indeed bad, did you do test to see if it was out of range, did the sensor you installed meet the same spec as the one you replaced by engine serial number, or did you change it without a test on a gut feeling and in fact you could currently be running lean and could cause a problem in the future.
You stated that it came from a used engine, engine calibrations change on a regular basis, from serial number to number, and also updates, I dont care if they built a day apart.
This is why PCM and not Mercury cares who they provide info to, we as mechanics dont do heart surgery nor would I want the medical manuals about it , I cant tell you how many times we have had to fix what somebody with a shop manual already fixed and fix the real problem.
My wife has been a mechanical engineer for 35 years and I have worked on a multitude of her fellow engineers vehicles, I can tell her the good engineers from the bad, the good ones come in and give me a detailed list of symtoms, the bad ones tell me what to fix.