ANGRY at PCM Engine Group...

[KonaKing]

I want a factory service manual for the EX-343 CAT. Not the owner/operator manual (I have that in printed and PDF form). I want the actual service manual that is used when working on the engine. I expect to pay for it - they're seldom cheap - but they're invaluable for having around when troubleshooting things. Or when you need some light reading {grin}.

I also want to talk to someone about maintenance and winterization. For example, that "fuel cell" thing they've got... any maintenance required? Any filter elements inside that need replacing, and on what schedule? How often do they recommend the injectors be cleaned and matched? That sort of thing.

PM sent

[JSTIII]

WABoating,

I would like to thank you for your business, and I apologize that no one has gotten back to you on your request, this will be looked into and addressed. I would like to assist in getting you the information that you are requesting. Our policies for suppling product, parts, manuals, etc. is for this to be done through our dealer network. The dealer that you are purchasing the boat from will be able to order the service manual for you. Please let me know if I can help in any further way.

Trey Thurman

[jwanck11]

There's more to it than that. Example: Remove impeller so it doesn't dry out and take a set. Example: Fog cylinders and rotate flywheel by hand. And that's just stuff I already know about beyond your list!

That's why I want to talk to them....

I think Zad's list is OK.

My boat sat for more than a year (Spring through beginning of following Summer) winterized with the impeller sitting in the housing and it did not dry out and there was no fogging done at all and yet she fired right up and ran like a champ all Summer.



In any case, it seems that PCM has provided to you the process of getting the information that you seek.

I also agree with an earlier post that you might consider holding your cards a little closer to the chest. It is always a good idea to maintain good relationships for when you need to call on someone ie. if you get gel coat damage, that might involve the dealer that is now "cool" toward you.

[IDBoating]

I would like to thank you for your business, and I apologize that no one has gotten back to you on your request, this will be looked into and addressed. I would like to assist in getting you the information that you are requesting.

Sounds good so far. But then:

Our policies for suppling product, parts, manuals, etc. is for this to be done through our dealer network. The dealer that you are purchasing the boat from will be able to order the service manual for you.

That's great, except that the dealer is 2800 miles away in Florida and I am in Washington State. This should not be his problem. This is a simple matter of me wanting to ask questions about one of your products for which I have paid a very substantial amount of money, and give you even MORE money in exchange for an additional product.

I'm sure the next suggestion will be to seek out a local dealer. As has been noted elsewhere here, dealers and their service departments want your service business. They aren't anxious to answer questions that help people do their own service, and they're not thrilled to provide you with manuals that make that even easier. Just like my purchasing dealer above, educating customers and acting like Barnes & Noble is not the business they're in. They don't want this to be their problem and I don't want to make it their problem. I respect the business they ARE in and am trying to be a conscientious consumer by going to the appropriate source.

There's a basic rule of business which says "Make it as easy as possible for the customer to give you his money." I must say I'm having a surprisingly difficult time giving PCM more of my money. Were I the owner of a company that manufactures luxury items (read: purely optional possessions), I would be working hard NOT to have such a reputation... particularly in today's economy.

Please let me know if I can help in any further way. Trey Thurman

OK, please give me a phone number that reaches someone who can answer technical questions about your products, and who can accept payment and ship me a manual. That would help me a lot. If you don't wish to make that number public, please PM it to me. I'll mention in this thread when you do, so that folks here will know that PCM does in fact support its customers. (The absence of such a message from me will also speak volumes.)

I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you in advance.

[skyski_tige]

Sounds good so far. But then:



That's great, except that the dealer is 2800 miles away in Florida and I am in Washington State. This should not be his problem. This is a simple matter of me wanting to ask questions about one of your products for which I have paid a very substantial amount of money, and give you even MORE money in exchange for an additional product.

I'm sure the next suggestion will be to seek out a local dealer. As has been noted elsewhere here, dealers and their service departments want your service business. They aren't anxious to answer questions that help people do their own service, and they're not thrilled to provide you with manuals that make that even easier. Just like my purchasing dealer above, educating customers and acting like Barnes & Noble is not the business they're in. They don't want this to be their problem and I don't want to make it their problem. I respect the business they ARE in and am trying to be a conscientious consumer by going to the appropriate source.

There's a basic rule of business which says "Make it as easy as possible for the customer to give you his money." I must say I'm having a surprisingly difficult time giving PCM more of my money. Were I the owner of a company that manufactures luxury items (read: purely optional possessions), I would be working hard NOT to have such a reputation... particularly in today's economy.



OK, please give me a phone number that reaches someone who can answer technical questions about your products, and who can accept payment and ship me a manual. That would help me a lot. If you don't wish to make that number public, please PM it to me. I'll mention in this thread when you do, so that folks here will know that PCM does in fact support its customers. (The absence of such a message from me will also speak volumes.)

I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you in advance.

This is exactly why I say support you local dealer. You seem to have pissed off you local dealer and now he does not want to help you. You bought your boat 1800 miles away and do not think you should get information from him. I don't understand that line of thought.

I see my local dealer as more of a friend than just someone I bought my boat from. He has helped educate me on my purchase and is my main point of contact when I have an issue. If i have a problem, I go to the dealer to get it resolved. He works with me to get the best possible outcome.

You have made this a very public issue when you did not have to. PCM is offering to help you but you still flamed him in your response. There is a book on how to influence people, you should read it.

[Fiveflat]

I tend to agree here. PCM offered to help you, and told you their company policy. Can't you order it through the dealer you purchased from? I bet it might even be able to be drop shipped?

Just curious, do you have the service manual for your vehicle?

[IDBoating]

This is exactly why I say support you local dealer. You seem to have pissed off you local dealer and now he does not want to help you.

To review:

I first went to my local Tige dealer to look at Tige boats. They acknowledged that they were a Tige dealer and then steered me toward Nautique. Every time I asked a question about Tige, they briefly answered it and then explained how Nautique was better in that and every regard. My wife and I both walked away with the distinct impression that they were only interested in selling Nautiques.

While there, we discovered a 2009 24Ve. When we asked about it, they said it was their demo boat but that it was also for sale. We looked it over and it was in awful shape - engine compartment filthy, serious wear and tear in the passenger compartment, etc. They were also asking a rather premium price for a "demo" boat.

When we got serious and found the boat in Florida, we called the local Tige dealer back to set up a time when we could come by, check out the boat, and see if they were willing to negotiate on their premium price. They bruskly claimed to have sold the boat, and did not ask if we wished to pursue other options.

So we proceeded with the Florida boat. It is brand new and looks like it, came with full factory warranty, several more factory options, and a substantially lower price. All from a dealer who has proven to be incredibly helpful.

Given the choice between a expensive, trashed-out demo from a rather rude local dealer, or a brand new warranted boat from an enormously helpful distant dealer - which would you have chosen? I'm very happy with my selection process and my choice of dealer.

I see my local dealer as more of a friend than just someone I bought my boat from. He has helped educate me on my purchase and is my main point of contact when I have an issue.

I still hope to have a positive relationship with my local dealer. But as noted above, they seem more interested in selling Nautique than talking about Tige. We went in asking specifically about Tige and yet at every opportunity in the conversation the dealer steered the discussion away from and Tige and toward Nautique. When we went back a second time, they basically pointed at the demo on the other side of the parking lot and ignored us. When I called to discuss, they simply said "it sold".

Are you suggesting we, as the paying customers, must endure whatever treatment we receive simply because it's coming from the "local" dealer? I don't share that opinion. I am very supportive of the local dealers for my other vehicles and they are supportive of me in return. We know each other by first names, etc. But those are positive relationships, not ones where I have to drag the dealer kicking and screaming to show me the products I'm interested in.

[IDBoating]

I tend to agree here. PCM offered to help you, and told you their company policy. Can't you order it through the dealer you purchased from? I bet it might even be able to be drop shipped?

If I don't hear back from PCM in this context, I will indeed approach the two local PCM certified shops (one Tige/Nautique, the other Mastercraft) and see if one of them can make things happen.

Just curious, do you have the service manual for your vehicle?

Obviously not for my new Tige, but for every other engined vehicle I own - Yes, I do. A partial list includes a Dodge 3500, Dodge Grand Caravan, Seadoo Challenger 2000, Seadoo XP jetski, Seadoo GSX jetski, Polaris 700 ATV, Polaris 500 ATV, Polaris 90 ATV, Deere LX280 tractor, Case 580SK loader/backhoe.... I have the actual factory service manuals for every one. When I sell something, my entire documentation package, receipts, and paperwork trail goes with it so the buyer knows exactly what they're getting, its history, and how to care for it if they choose to do so themselves. That's what I expect as a buyer, so I deliver it as a seller.

I actually started trying to order the PCM manual before I even paid for the boat, so I could school up ASAP. I believe that if you take good care of your equipment, it will take good care of you. Having documentation makes it possible to know your equipment better, allowing you to take the best possible care of it.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not asking for freebies here. I've openly offered to pay for the manual in every voicemail and every email. All I want is to buy something they have for sale.

[Fiveflat]

You've sparked my interest. I'm assuming your Dodge 3500 is a diesel? Did you get the service manual from Cummins then?

[IDBoating]

You've sparked my interest. I'm assuming your Dodge 3500 is a diesel? Did you get the service manual from Cummins then?

No, Dodge makes it available as a PDF file (a REALLY, REALLY big one). I got it from one of the Dodge usergroups soon after purchasing the truck.

Speaking of Cummins, my Case 580SK has a Cummins 4-390 engine. The manual for that was $500 (!!!) but fortunately for me the original owner, from whom I purchased the backhoe, shared my interest in having proper documentation and handed it to me when I bought the machine. It's hardcopy in a three-ring binder that is ~5 inches thick. And yes, I've had occasion to use it while repairing a control lever and installing an engine block heater. Both purchased from the local Case dealer, by the way!

[zad0030]

There's more to it than that. Example: Remove impeller so it doesn't dry out and take a set. Example: Fog cylinders and rotate flywheel by hand. And that's just stuff I already know about beyond your list!

That's why I want to talk to them....

NO, DON'T FOG! Dont fog an engine with CATs... Plus the engine is probably MPI so you would have to remove each spark plug to spay in the fogging oil.

Removing the impeller is preference, never heard of rotating the flywheel....

[IDBoating]

NO, DON'T FOG! Dont fog an engine with CATs... Plus the engine is probably MPI so you would have to remove each spark plug to spay in the fogging oil.

Quote straight from the manual:

"Turn off the ignition and remove the spark plugs. Use an aerosol-type fogging solution and spray a sufficient amount into each cylinder. (Spray 5 seconds per cylinder, minimum.) Turn the crankshaft several revolutions by hand to spread the oil evenly throughout the cylinders.... Install the spark plugs and connect the spark plug wires." (emphasis theirs)

There are no special instructions for CAT equipped engines.

See? This is exactly why I want to talk to someone at the factory. The manual says "fog" but you think "not for CAT engines" but the manual doesn't say if CAT's should be different but... and we're gambling with an $8000 engine.

(BTW, Mercury - the engine in my existing boat - answers their phones and you can talk straight to their technicians. That's how I learned the proper way to winterize their engines and jetdrives.)

[skyski_tige]

To review:

I first went to my local Tige dealer to look at Tige boats. They acknowledged that they were a Tige dealer and then steered me toward Nautique. Every time I asked a question about Tige, they briefly answered it and then explained how Nautique was better in that and every regard. My wife and I both walked away with the distinct impression that they were only interested in selling Nautiques.

While there, we discovered a 2009 24Ve. When we asked about it, they said it was their demo boat but that it was also for sale. We looked it over and it was in awful shape - engine compartment filthy, serious wear and tear in the passenger compartment, etc. They were also asking a rather premium price for a "demo" boat.

When we got serious and found the boat in Florida, we called the local Tige dealer back to set up a time when we could come by, check out the boat, and see if they were willing to negotiate on their premium price. They bruskly claimed to have sold the boat, and did not ask if we wished to pursue other options.

So we proceeded with the Florida boat. It is brand new and looks like it, came with full factory warranty, several more factory options, and a substantially lower price. All from a dealer who has proven to be incredibly helpful.

Given the choice between a expensive, trashed-out demo from a rather rude local dealer, or a brand new warranted boat from an enormously helpful distant dealer - which would you have chosen? I'm very happy with my selection process and my choice of dealer.



I still hope to have a positive relationship with my local dealer. But as noted above, they seem more interested in selling Nautique than talking about Tige. We went in asking specifically about Tige and yet at every opportunity in the conversation the dealer steered the discussion away from and Tige and toward Nautique. When we went back a second time, they basically pointed at the demo on the other side of the parking lot and ignored us. When I called to discuss, they simply said "it sold".

Are you suggesting we, as the paying customers, must endure whatever treatment we receive simply because it's coming from the "local" dealer? I don't share that opinion. I am very supportive of the local dealers for my other vehicles and they are supportive of me in return. We know each other by first names, etc. But those are positive relationships, not ones where I have to drag the dealer kicking and screaming to show me the products I'm interested in.

Have you ever heard of the acronym TMI?

I guess I am lucky to have a local dealer that I can trust. All I am saying is before you go after the manufacturer, you should contact the proper channels. He was trying to help you and you slammed him in your response.

I am sure YOU did the right thing for you situation. Mr. Forte should be helping educate you with your purchase and helping you with your questions. That is part of what your dealer should be doing regardless of what geographic location.

[IDBoating]

Have you ever heard of the acronym TMI?

Sorry, it felt like you were implying that I had caused the problem with the local dealer. I was trying to explain what happened.

[zad0030]

Quote straight from the manual:

"Turn off the ignition and remove the spark plugs. Use an aerosol-type fogging solution and spray a sufficient amount into each cylinder. (Spray 5 seconds per cylinder, minimum.) Turn the crankshaft several revolutions by hand to spread the oil evenly throughout the cylinders.... Install the spark plugs and connect the spark plug wires." (emphasis theirs)

There are no special instructions for CAT equipped engines.

See? This is exactly why I want to talk to someone at the factory. The manual says "fog" but you think "not for CAT engines" but the manual doesn't say if CAT's should be different but... and we're gambling with an $8000 engine.

(BTW, Mercury - the engine in my existing boat - answers their phones and you can talk straight to their technicians. That's how I learned the proper way to winterize their engines and jetdrives.)

Is that Manual specifically for the CAT equipped engine?
My dealer and I believe the manual both said not to.