SpeedSet and FAE Questions (2007 22Ve)

[chpthril]

I have no doubt that engine rpm plays a factor in operation of speed set, but ill stand by my statement that its set and holding point is MPH based. Its not like perfect pass that had an RPM mode ideal for running a course and mph mode for boarding,

As to the nauticlogic, does it not take the place of the paddle wheel and supply the GPS based speed input?

Unlike old PP, speed set is not a stand alone system. The speed set touch pad is an appendage of the ECM. You are simply telling the throttle position motor to hold based on the speed set input, not the manual throttle lever mounted PPS. You cna command the speed up or down electronically in increment, rather than trying to do it manually via the throttle lever.

Unless the fuel is old, I would not run it out and replace. I would certainly not replace with a higher than recommended octane unless thats all thats available. There is no performance benefit to running an octane higher than required. They contains the same BTU p/oz, so same power once ignited. However, the higher octane takes more heat (resists high/has higher flash point) than lower octane. But again, no performance benefit. IIRC, the marine power 340 5.7L requires 87. Its always safe, in regards to pre-ignition, to run a higher oct, but no performance benefit that offsets the added expense. With or without ethanol is an entirely different topic and not related to octane.

is that #knowledgebomb enough for you elevated?

[Dandy]

I have no doubt that engine rpm plays a factor in operation of speed set, but ill stand by my statement that its set and holding point is MPH based. Its not like perfect pass that had an RPM mode ideal for running a course and mph mode for boarding,

As to the nauticlogic, does it not take the place of the paddle wheel and supply the GPS based speed input?

Unlike old PP, speed set is not a stand alone system. The speed set touch pad is an appendage of the ECM. You are simply telling the throttle position motor to hold based on the speed set input, not the manual throttle lever mounted PPS. You cna command the speed up or down electronically in increment, rather than trying to do it manually via the throttle lever.

Unless the fuel is old, I would not run it out and replace. I would certainly not replace with a higher than recommended octane unless thats all thats available. There is no performance benefit to running an octane higher than required. They contains the same BTU p/oz, so same power once ignited. However, the higher octane takes more heat (resists high/has higher flash point) than lower octane. But again, no performance benefit. IIRC, the marine power 340 5.7L requires 87. Its always safe, in regards to pre-ignition, to run a higher oct, but no performance benefit that offsets the added expense. With or without ethanol is an entirely different topic and not related to octane.

is that #knowledgebomb enough for you elevated?

Mike - Yes, the NauticLogic does replace the paddlewheel as the speed input. The harness is a "Y" so it still pulls the depth/water temp, but does not allow the paddlewheel signal to pass through the the controls, the GPS now becomes the speed input. At least this is how I understood it.

So, my question on SpeedSet - Speed or RPM, can the sensitivity be adjusted?

Regarding the Fuel/Octane, the only non ethanol fuel I can source near me is 91 octane, which is why I run it in our boats and small engines. From the little bit I have read and can comprehend, the ethanol will draw moisture and given that boats are in a "moisture rich" (to say the least) environment, I don't mind spending more to minimize the risk of water in the fuel system. I did have about 1/2 tank of fuel left from last season, I topped that off with 91 - non ethanol fuel instead of running it down. Thegerman was suggesting that I now run it down to get as much of the old stuff out, even thought it is now mixed in. My thought on adding the new fuel was to "thin down" the bad stuff and any potential damage.

[chpthril]

Mike - Yes, the NauticLogic does replace the paddlewheel as the speed input. The harness is a "Y" so it still pulls the depth/water temp, but does not allow the paddlewheel signal to pass through the the controls, the GPS now becomes the speed input. At least this is how I understood it.

That was my understanding, just want to clarify. The ECM and speedo gauge still see speed, they just dont know or care whether its right or wrong and paddle or GPS.

So, my question on SpeedSet - Speed or RPM, can the sensitivity be adjusted?

I am not familiar enough with nauticlogic to know of any calibrations with it. But as to the speed set, that would be a new update from Marine power, providing there is not an issue with a sensor or the throttle motor and the engine running as it should.

As stated, octane and ethanol are two entirely separate discussions. Octane is a ratio of between the heptane and octane determined by refinement. Ethanol is an additive. Not all 91 has ethanol and at the same time, 91 is not automatically ethanol free. If ethanol is the concern, and you want to run ethanol free fuel, you still want to seek out the recommended octane fuel, or the next higher oct thats available in ethanol free.

If running higher octane (ethanol not withstanding) is suggested for a performance reason, then refer to the above post. There can be long term benefits running non-ethanol fuel. However, the benefits are from the absence of ethanol, not from the 91 oct. It just may happen that one has to step up from 87 with ethanol, to a 91 without ethanol to get the non-ethanol.

[retox1]

There's no sensitivity adjustment in the menus, but when I was having issues I sent the ECM to Marine Power during winter and they reflashed it. It still moves up and down in speed a little bit but not like it did before, and not enough that you actually feel it happening. They did the reflash for free, I just had to pay shipping.

[Dandy]

There's no sensitivity adjustment in the menus, but when I was having issues I sent the ECM to Marine Power during winter and they reflashed it. It still moves up and down in speed a little bit but not like it did before, and not enough that you actually feel it happening. They did the reflash for free, I just had to pay shipping.

AWESOME - Good To Know! I will reach out to MP. They seem as if they really have good service and stand behind their product and clients. I have called them once before to get some clarification on service components and they were very helpful. I have wondered why there are not any towboat companies that continue to use them.

[Thegerman618]

Retox- This is not sarcasm nor do I extend any ill intentions, but your 07 RZ is a COMPLETELY different setup than 07 VE model boats. All I know for sure is that sometime between late 06 early 07 Tige switched up the speedset schematic. The original panel, wiring schematic, and design was all Tige created. The panel was made by a company out of WA. called Vallara (something like that) that essentially went out of business shortly after. Tige reached out to Medallion and asked them to make this panel work. Medallion removed the RPM connection off the ECU and connected it to the paddlewheel. Since the panel is designed to read ECU code off the motor because its looking for RPM signal, Medallion created a code inverter (known as Medallion Black Box) that is in most of the newer boats that still use the speedset panel. This black box converts a paddle wheel signal to ECU code so the Tige speedset panel recognizes it and adjusts off speed not RPM. That does not change that fact that Speedset is/was controlled off of the ECU in late 06 early 07 production boats. I called and asked before I bought nautic logic if this would correct my speedset overshoot issue and the plain and simple answer was NO. The speed gauge you see has nothing to do with your speedset, its all ECU controlled.

[Germaine Marine]

I have no doubt that engine rpm plays a factor in operation of speed set, but ill stand by my statement that its set and holding point is MPH based. Its not like perfect pass that had an RPM mode ideal for running a course and mph mode for boarding,

As to the nauticlogic, does it not take the place of the paddle wheel and supply the GPS based speed input?

Unlike old PP, speed set is not a stand alone system. The speed set touch pad is an appendage of the ECM. You are simply telling the throttle position motor to hold based on the speed set input, not the manual throttle lever mounted PPS. You cna command the speed up or down electronically in increment, rather than trying to do it manually via the throttle lever.

Unless the fuel is old, I would not run it out and replace. I would certainly not replace with a higher than recommended octane unless thats all thats available. There is no performance benefit to running an octane higher than required. They contains the same BTU p/oz, so same power once ignited. However, the higher octane takes more heat (resists high/has higher flash point) than lower octane. But again, no performance benefit. IIRC, the marine power 340 5.7L requires 87. Its always safe, in regards to pre-ignition, to run a higher oct, but no performance benefit that offsets the added expense. With or without ethanol is an entirely different topic and not related to octane.

is that #knowledgebomb enough for you elevated?

If you are correct absolutely... seems to be a ton of uncertainty here much like the fae post in which you chimed in about me checking my info.... but I digress. ID boating did a ton of research and development here with brad being the poster boy.

Not everything is a personal attack on you Mike especially when it comes to giving a complement to someone else like Brad who had a vital role with ID in testing that system. He is super knowledgable hence.... #Knowledgebomb

Good grief.

[chpthril]

Interesting because an 08 production speed-set pad was plug-n-play for an 06 with what tige called accu-set. No black box, just swap the pads. Also strange that Tige would use two different speed set versions in 07, which was the first year of speed set, on different model boats, that offered the same drive train packages yet the boats are virtually identical other than looks.

And yes, the gauge has nothing to do with the operation of the speed set, other than seeing the set and desired speeds. However, with a failed gauge, the speed set could still operate. If both gauge and speed set not working, typically indicated a bad paddle wheel.

[IDBoating]

I'll cautiously weigh in here.... {grin}

During that era cruise control was handled by the ECU. Certain ECU's offered two modes: RPM (in which the cruise control firmware modulated the throttle to maintain a constant engine RPM) and speed (in which the cruise control firmware modulated the throttle to maintain a constant hull velocity). The ECU exposed a signal lead that could be driven high or low to select which mode you wanted; it was up to the boat manufacturer whether they wanted to expose that option to you on their helm or just force the choice.

A few other signal leads exposed by the ECU included "Up", "Down", "Enable", and "Paddlewheel". Yes, the paddlewheel's pulses were connected straight to the ECU, and it was the ECU that "closed the loop" by recording the rate of pulses when cruise was engaged, then modulating the throttle to keep that rate constant. The Tige TouchPad (aka "SpeedSet pad") handled a few more of those signals such as up, down, and enable. But the "logic" of the cruise control on those boats was entirely within the ECU, and this is why the ECU had to receive the paddlewheel pulses.

The speedometer on the helm obviously also needed to know the hull velocity. This is handled by the ECU transmitting a CAN message every so often containing a digital representation of the hull velocity. In our AutoWake videos, when you see our tablet displaying speed, that information is coming off the CAN network straight from the ECU. We don't have a connection to the paddlewheel, the ECU does and it then converts that pulse train to CAN messages. The in-dash gauge works exactly the same way.

AFAIK Tige's cruise control options are all speed based. I've never seen an RPM based one, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. As to why some boats "hunt" for cruise speed, I don't have a one-size-fits-all answer but suspect it may have to do with prop choice vs. ballast vs. TAPS drag, etc. Closed loop systems must have some degree of dampening, and that dampening is a compromise between a bunch of factors. Start varying props and ballast and trim plate drag and so forth, and the presumptions about the proper dampening can get wildly out of whack.

Example: Presume your cruise system is properly tuned for a given prop and total boat mass. Now you add several thousand pounds of ballast; obviously the boat gets "sluggish" and cannot respond as quickly to throttle changes. So when the ECU tries to increase/decrease the hull speed, the boat doesn't respond like it expects... and so the closed loop system "does something". Let's presume it forces the throttle even harder because things aren't changing fast enough. Now, instead of a carefully ramped adjustment, you have a wild overshoot - so the closed loop starts adjusting the other way. Except that things are "sluggish" in that direction too, so you overshoot again. Lather, rinse, repeat. I don't know for certain that's what's happening but it's a logical explanation.

Summary: Tige's ECU-based cruise control (which was used until at least 2009 and, I believe, beyond on their entry level models) is speed based, driven by paddlewheel pulses. I am not aware of any parameters in the ECU firmware that can be "tuned" to accommodate changes in ballasting, prop, etc. There are persistent reports of "hunting" in some units which I have not personally researched but I suspect are related to changes in boat configuration that the ECU firmware does not accommodate.

Just sharing what I know/believe/have heard as rumors. {grin}

[IDBoating]

Interesting because an 08 production speed-set pad was plug-n-play for an 06 with what tige called accu-set. No black box, just swap the pads.

Agreed. While there have been several iterations of the Tige TouchPad over the years, every single one is plug-and-play compatible. They all use a 12 pin Deutsch-style connector, of which only seven pins are actually used.

The variations in the pads over the years are minor, including quantity and size of the snapdomes; style of the damnable flex circuitry that is the Root of All Evil in this design; and other relatively cosmetic differences. Unfortunately, over all those years the electronic subcontractor(s) never bothered to do a basic redesign to fix the fundamental problem.

We have a single updated replacement for the Tige TouchPad and have sold them to every year out there starting with (IIRC) 2005 and going through at least 2014. They've all been direct drop-in electrical swaps regardless of year.

[Germaine Marine]

The amount you know of that system ID is insane.......

[Thegerman618]

Thanks for the clarification IDB. I was determined to let this go, but since I learned what I know from you and the testing We did on the prototype panel on my 06. IIRC There where some boats that had the medallion black box that the panels where connecting to connected to and some (like mine) that just went straight back to the motor?

Your first paragraph is basically what I have been trying to explain all along.

I have meant no disrespect to anyone here, just been trying explain...poorly I guess but I'll take that as I am not an expert but I learned a lot about the SpeedSet when I had my own issues.

[IDBoating]

Agreed. While there have been several iterations of the Tige TouchPad over the years, every single one is plug-and-play compatible.

An extra little detail on this that some may find interesting:

Prior to the introduction of the LCD screens (in 2008? 2009?), the Tige TouchPad interfaced directly to the engine ECU. Remember those signals I mentioned above? Those were handled directly by the touchpad. You were issuing commands directly to the ECU, which then used them to control the cruise control firmware.

When Tige wanted to introduce the LCD, with its multilevel menu system, they had a problem. The touchpad was designed to talk to the ECU inputs, and obviously the ECU doesn't know anything about some LCD or menu systems or anything else. But the touchpad had the buttons necessary to control the display; it would be silly to have TWO sets of buttons that are redundant and add expense. What to do?

So Medallion, who was the helm electronics vendor to Tige at the time, designed their hardware to basically sit between the touchpad and the ECU. Medallion always receives the touchpad signals, and uses them to either control the LCD and menu system or control the cruise control system. I suspect it required a bit of effort on Medallion's part to retrofit the older touchpad design to what they actually needed for their LCD/menu system... particularly in the case of the center button, whose output is actually a toggled value (alternates between high and low). Medallion had to use edge detection to simulate momentary-on behavior.

Think about that: The snapdome is natively momentary-on, but there's circuitry in the touchpad to simulate toggled operation, so Medallion had to add hardware/firmware/both to simulate momentary operation again! That must have been a bit frustrating, but I suspect Tige had an investment in the touchpad and didn't want to stock two, separate, incompatible versions so they insisted Medallion make their new system work with the old pad design. Ah, the joys of retro-Engineering.

Pretty interesting how a design decision from ~2004-2005 continues to have a ripple effect over a decade later.

[retox1]

Retox- This is not sarcasm nor do I extend any ill intentions, but your 07 RZ is a COMPLETELY different setup than 07 VE model boats. All I know for sure is that sometime between late 06 early 07 Tige switched up the speedset schematic. The original panel, wiring schematic, and design was all Tige created. The panel was made by a company out of WA. called Vallara (something like that) that essentially went out of business shortly after. Tige reached out to Medallion and asked them to make this panel work. Medallion removed the RPM connection off the ECU and connected it to the paddlewheel. Since the panel is designed to read ECU code off the motor because its looking for RPM signal, Medallion created a code inverter (known as Medallion Black Box) that is in most of the newer boats that still use the speedset panel. This black box converts a paddle wheel signal to ECU code so the Tige speedset panel recognizes it and adjusts off speed not RPM. That does not change that fact that Speedset is/was controlled off of the ECU in late 06 early 07 production boats. I called and asked before I bought nautic logic if this would correct my speedset overshoot issue and the plain and simple answer was NO. The speed gauge you see has nothing to do with your speedset, its all ECU controlled.

No worries. So your saying that the Speedset in my RZ2 and in a 07 Ve are actually different but similar systems? That seems like a weird way to do things. Clearly some of the guys here know far more about this system than me, I was just hoping to add what I was told by the guys at MP.

Only thing I can say for sure is that I miss my old Perfect Pass Stargazer. That kept speed flawlessly.

[culrich77]

Ok....so reading this thread has me even more confused now with my speedometer problem. It won't even read until we are up to 8-9 mph and then sometimes it just won't come on at all. But once I get going fast up to like 15-20 it seems to work fine? Paddle wheel problem?