Why Mastercraft?! Worst design ever!!

[freeheel4life]

**WARNING ** this is a rant

So had an x star come in. Complaint was KGB (center ballast) would only empty. Checked voltages at switch and saw 12v on ground so knew right off open ground. Eventually found stupid box in port locker...with 12 relays for only 6 functions (three pumps that need to run fwd and rev) realized the other 6 relays were for power to switch and LED in switch.
Why would any engineer design a system that requires a relay for a effing LED?? Retarded. Apparently no-one at Mastercraft heard polarity reversing switches. Would totally go with an argument with cost savings for higher amp draw in jabsco reversible and locating relays in rear to run smaller gauge wire from dash to activate a 20A load, but 12v power to switch and LED in switch?? Waste of money passed on to consumers with an end product that is extremely lame to diagnose.

Already loath MC for their proprietary parts, but this is the topper. Hate em.

[IDBoating]

Were the relays DPDT? Often you'll use two SPDT relays to create a DPDT reversing system because it can be cheaper to use SPDT instead of DPDT. I recently designed a system for a boat manufacturer exactly this way, because the SPDT's were less than half the cost of an equivalent DPDT relay and far more available in the market should field replacements be necessary.

Agree that using a separate relay for LED is beyond stupid. Indeed, I would WANT the LED powered from the same circuit because it would provide some diagnostic info if something stopped working. As you've described it, the switch and LED would continue to appear normal even with total failure of the associated pump relay. WTF?!?

[freeheel4life]

They were two SPDT per pump. Seems like it would be easier to run a polarity reversing switch (like the one that comes with a ballast puppy) and just run wire that can handle 20a load. Not like size is a limitation when running down the gunnels, and at around 15$ a relay I'm sure you could get it done with wire instead of relays. Not like it's a starting circuit.
It wasn't just that, at every 12 pun Deutsch the wire labelling changed. First connection all wire labeled b1-b12, and on other side of next connector j1-j12. Don't understand why it has to be so convoluted. Wish I would have taken a picture of said "module" or in this case a box with a **** ton of relays crammed into it. My other concern was a bunch of uninsulated power wires on 87 pins on some relays right next to uninsulated grounds in an application with lots of vibration. Just seems like asking for shorts.
Just re-affirms my hate for MC

[IDBoating]

It wasn't just that, at every 12 pun Deutsch the wire labelling changed.

Hope they used the DTP (Deutsch) or ATP (Amphenol) series of connectors, and not the standard DT/AT. The latter's contacts are only rated for 13 amps and are not suitable for impeller-style pumps. The "P" versions can handle 25 amps but are physically incompatible with the standard connectors, more expensive, and are not available in as many configurations so it's very tempting to "just get by" with the non-P parts.

[freeheel4life]

All the low amp "control circuit" was from helm to relay box and entered at top and was only carrying amperage for coil of relays (85 and 86) All load circuit (87 and 87a) left bottom of box and went to pumps and of course wires again switch color and didn't bother cutting heat shrink off but instead of Deutsch it looked and felt like they just used male and female blue crimps and heat shrinked over, then a Deutsch at pump.
I always prefer to have a schematic, but usually get to a good diagnosis pretty quickly without. This whole thing ate up about an hour and a half to diagnose. PITA for a simple open ground

[IDBoating]

...didn't bother cutting heat shrink off but instead of Deutsch it looked and felt like they just used male and female blue crimps and heat shrinked over, then a Deutsch at pump.

Yuck. If you're going to connectorize the pumps, it's best to do so some distance from the pumps so you can get the connector out of the water. Yes, I know, Deutsch-style connectors are "supposed" to be waterproof - but have you ever assembled one? The front end has a nice gasket, but the wire entry at the back depends entirely on the interface between a thin piece of rubber and the wire insulation. That wire insulation could be anything; the connector manufacturer doesn't control what wire is used and the connector specs don't impose any requirements. You could get varying watertightness based on OD, insulation surface texture, and a dozen other variables. The connector manufacturer controls all of the mating surfaces at the front end (good!) but I don't trust the multiple wire entry points on the back of both connectors. It's odd that this connector style has become such a standard in the automotive industry. I guess it must work "OK" most of the time... I'm sure it's dustproof, which may be sufficient in a lot of applications... but there are a lot of better choices available, and for the price they charge for Deutsch style connectors there are a LOT of options out there.

Edit: I've also never seen anything about a SAE J1171 rating for these connectors from either Deutsch or Amphenol. We've had multiple products certified for J1171 so I'm familiar with the tests and it's hard for me to imagine that these connectors would pass unless a specific wire/insulation was used that achieved the proper seal at the wire entry points.

Nice job sleuthing out the open ground. Reverse engineering someone else's bad design is SO entertaining, eh?

[UNSTUCK]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a connector that does address the wire input side. Weather pack are probably my favorite connectors to use, in terms of ease of use and quality of connection, but they also have a similar issue of water tightness at the back end. Although I can't think of a failure I've had using one. I do wish they were a bit more compact, but still used the same locking feature.

I'm also glad I'm not the only one that looks and electrical and cusses at the manufacturer for doing something dumb. Maybe we should start a support group.

[Dandy]

I'm also glad I'm not the only one that looks and electrical and cusses at the manufacturer for doing something dumb. Maybe we should start a support group.

We produce wire harnesses for our equipment (agricultural based) and use alot of the Molex MX150 Series connectors. Unlike mentioned above with the Deutsch series, they do have specs on the diameter of the insulation for the seal on the back end. I do believe from my last meeting with Molex, they are now producing a Deutsch compatible connector as well.

When we had our '13 Tige Z1, I was floored to find several locations that had 16 AWG wire stripped and then turned back on itself with a 10/12 terminal crimped to it. it was not even a heat/seal terminal, just a plain old nylon crimp terminal. I went through many of the connections where wire length would allow and put on a proper sized terminal with heat/seal. It makes me wonder if they actually have harnesses built or just pull wire randomly from on point to another - cut, strip, crimp and install. From crawling around in some Nautiques, it appears that they actually have a harness built. Not sure on the newer Tiges.

[IDBoating]

When we toured the Tige facility, they assembled their own wiring harnesses right on the production floor. Had the standard "wiring board" like every other harness company I've ever seen, very traditional. They certainly have the means to do it properly. Meanwhile, my 2009 24Ve's harness is full of unused and labeled connectors for features I don't have on that boat. That argues they are making standardized harnesses, not pulling individual wires during hull assembly. At least they were seven years ago. {grin}

That trick of folding back thinner wire to use an inappropriate terminal is, unfortunately, rather common. Just another reason to hate crimped connectors! Even on the Deutsch-style connectors that are intended to be crimped I first crimp, and then solder, every single wire. I don't trust crimps, especially in high vibration environments, and doubling back the wire doesn't make them any better!

Spec'ing the diameter of the insulation (not just the wire inside) is only part of the solution. There are insulation types that don't present a "smooth" surface, and the Deutsch-style connectors would not achieve a waterproof seal with those.

The best watertight connectors I've seen (that can be assembled in the field) are the ones that have a rubber seal that gets compressed during connector assembly. They tend to be a bit bulky, but I'd trust them to be watertight even with unsmooth insulation because the seal gets compressed into the insulation. The VERY best are the ones that are molded onto the end of the wire/cable itself, but that's not suitable for field assembly.

It's possible the boat manufacturers are using Deutsch-style connectors because they've become something of an industry standard in the automotive field. There is legal safety in following the herd, and if the engine manufacturers are shipping engines with those connectors it provides some "cover" by just going along. The pleasure boat industry doesn't move enough volume to justify designing dedicated, marine-rated connectors.

[IDBoating]

Just scanned those Molex MX150's. Interesting design, thanks for pointing it out. I do see that they spec the insulation OD. To me, that says they really are paying attention to watertightness. They also specifically mention IP67/etc. ratings which I've never seen in a Deutsch specsheet. Interesting, eh?

Still nothing about SAE J1171, though only the marine industry cares about it.

[Dandy]

Just scanned those Molex MX150's. Interesting design, thanks for pointing it out. I do see that they spec the insulation OD. To me, that says they really are paying attention to watertightness. They also specifically mention IP67/etc. ratings which I've never seen in a Deutsch specsheet. Interesting, eh?

Still nothing about SAE J1171, though only the marine industry cares about it.

We have had very good luck with the Molex products and good service from our distributor to back it up. What is also nice is that their mini-mac applicators are generally the same for both male and female terminals, minimizing tooling costs. We have a control supplier that uses alot of Delphi Metri-Pak and Weather-Pak terminals. I think they are nice and alot of people have proper field service tools for them, however the tooling is a separate applicator for each AWG range and for both male and female. For the volume we would use I could not justify the tooling cost.

We have only had one issue with the MX150L series, very early on. On applicator set up, one of our team failed to run a pull test. This caused our first run of wires to pull out of the crimp. Again, as you have pointed out, if crimped and soldered it may not have been an issue. The issue is we don't have very skilled solders around here...myself included. Since then, we do pull tests on each set up on each cable run and terminal style without issue. Most of our harnesses are 2-8 wire - 14-18AWG/ 2-3 segment per harness and we probably only run 1000-1200 complete harnesses annually. We do it to keep our team busy in the off season instead of outsourcing the work.

[IDBoating]

That kind of soldering is easily taught and very fast in production. Nevertheless, solder should be viewed as an electrical connection first and never relied upon as the sole mechanical connection means. The crimp, if there must be one, should be proper on its own merit. The solder then improves conductivity (by increasing contact surface area) and reduces vibration within the crimp (vibration plays a key role in the failure of crimped connections).

It's not just boat manufacturers that make odd electrical choices, BTW. My truck's rear door harnesses are made of stranded wire that has a low strand count of higher gauge wires. That type of wire is more tolerant of flex than solid wire, sure, but it's not meant to be flexed all that much. Yet there are few places on a vehicle more flexed than a door harness! Every single time the door is opened OR closed that harness gets worked. Eventually the wires break inside the insulation but there's nothing visible on the insulation to tell you where. I've picked up a spool of high strand count, silicone-insulated wire and plan to rebuild the harness section between the body and the door with it. This type of wire is often used for test leads and is designed to take lots of flex. It costs about the same as the "heavier" wire in the same gauge. Would it kill the car manufacturers to use it?!?

[Credo]

Hey I agree with the MC proprietary parts but some of those parts are pretty ingenious. I love how Illmor moved the starter from the bottom facing backwards to the top of the bell housing with the starter hanging over the V-drive. Makes it so you don't have to be a contortionist to change it or pull the motor like Nautique suggest.

[IDBoating]

Hey I agree with the MC proprietary parts but some of those parts are pretty ingenious. I love how Illmor moved the starter from the bottom facing backwards to the top of the bell housing with the starter hanging over the V-drive. Makes it so you don't have to be a contortionist to change it or pull the motor like Nautique suggest.

It's certainly easier to be ingenious when you have the kind of money that MC charges!