Amp & Sub Location Question

[tige']

I am a trying to install a new stereo system in my boat. Though I am familiar with home entertainment systems, this is the first time I have installed amps in a car or boat.

I have three amps, a capacitor and a sub to mount.

I was thinking of putting the amps under the "dash" in front of the passenger seat. There is a fair amount of space that is way back and up behind the glove box (and the head unit).

And, I was thinking of putting the sub (it is a free-air sub) up by the drivers feet (kickboard or preferably even higher). I would possibly still enclose the sub depending on how it mounts and sounds.

My question is this....I have heard that the amps should not be within three feet of the head unit, so that would not allow me to put the amps where I was thinking.

And, I have heard that it is not a good idea to place a sub by the gauges, so I am not sure if this is a good location either.

I also heard that placing the sub by the head unit can cause the CD to skip, so I don't know if moving the sub to the other side would even work ?

I would really like to use the space that is basically wasted in those areas rather than mounting the amps in the engine compartment. These areas will also be much drier than the engine compartment - I am not opposed to adding a fan if I need to.

Any thoughts? Any other ideas? Do I really need to worry about this?? Three amps up there will be tight, any space savings suggestions if this will work?

Also, is it better to reduce the length of power and ground cables or the RCA patch and speaker cables?? This may also determine where everything gets mounted. I don't mind spending a little more money for better (or longer cables) if I can save storage space without sacrificing sound quality.

Thanks!!

[philwsailz]

I am a trying to install a new stereo system in my boat. Though I am familiar with home entertainment systems, this is the first time I have installed amps in a car or boat.

I have three amps, a capacitor and a sub to mount.

I was thinking of putting the amps under the "dash" in front of the passenger seat. There is a fair amount of space that is way back and up behind the glove box (and the head unit).

And, I was thinking of putting the sub (it is a free-air sub) up by the drivers feet (kickboard or preferably even higher). I would possibly still enclose the sub depending on how it mounts and sounds.

My question is this....I have heard that the amps should not be within three feet of the head unit, so that would not allow me to put the amps where I was thinking.

And, I have heard that it is not a good idea to place a sub by the gauges, so I am not sure if this is a good location either.

I also heard that placing the sub by the head unit can cause the CD to skip, so I don't know if moving the sub to the other side would even work ?

I would really like to use the space that is basically wasted in those areas rather than mounting the amps in the engine compartment. These areas will also be much drier than the engine compartment - I am not opposed to adding a fan if I need to.

Any thoughts? Any other ideas? Do I really need to worry about this?? Three amps up there will be tight, any space savings suggestions if this will work?

Also, is it better to reduce the length of power and ground cables or the RCA patch and speaker cables?? This may also determine where everything gets mounted. I don't mind spending a little more money for better (or longer cables) if I can save storage space without sacrificing sound quality.

Thanks!!

Hey- Welcome!

Amps by the head unit is not a problem. Most of the time it is a good thing, as noise is often introduced between the head unit and the amp(s) so shorter RCA runs is good. I am not sure where you heard that amps should be away from the H/U. weird...
The location you like in the storage in front of the passenger area is a good one. Try to refrain from putting amps in the engine compartment. That area has lots of moisture and has a potential for flammable vapors.

Putting the sub in front of the driver is real common. Many models of Tige' boats have a thru-hole for a 10" subwoofer almost completely cut. Others here will be able to tell you better than I can if your boat is pre-cut or not. Enclosing the sub usually results in better sound, but let us know which sub for sure so we can guide you further. Go with your thoughts about location for the subwoofer.
Installation of the sub by the gauges should not be a problem for you. The only issues that boat owners typically experience with speakers mounted near gauges is compass deviation, and I bet you do nto have a compass on the boat.

Subwoofers by the head unit can potentially cause the H/U to skip, so that is a reason to go for the driver's side location for the sub...

Wiring... we already shared that short RCA cables are good. I will also tell you power wires are better when they are as short as possible. Speakers wires are even better when they are as short as possible, but they are the least susceptible to length in your installation. If you are designing with wire length in mind, make power wire the number 1 priority and RCA wiring #2. Make speaker wire length your lowest priority. These priorities will help with power, sound quality, AND cost impact to your wallet...

Ask away; this is an active forum, and you will get more replies, and some real good insight. Tim from Wetsounds hangs out here, Mike from Mike's Liquid Audio, (Chpthril) is a good guy with a lot of great advice, and there are others as well.

Keep us posted, ask tons of questions, and if ever we seem vague ask for clarification!

Phil
Kicker Marine

[chpthril]

Welcome, What year/model Tige do you have?

Have you chosen your stereo equipment yet, if so, what have got/decided? If still in the planning stages, what are you looking at?

[tige']

Phil,

Thanks for the warm welcome!!

I do have ton's of questions so I really appreciate the help!!

Below is where I read about the three feet. It is from Crutchfields and is about car installation but figured it would be the same for a boat. It is the first comment after the Planning Ahead section.

http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/lea...ion_guide.html

Anyway, I am glad to hear that this is not a big deal because that empty space seems like a great place to put the amps.

It looks like I will mount the amps up in that space and run the power & ground wires along the side of the boat.

Questions about that part are:

I assume that it is not good to run the power lines with the speaker wires. I will have speakers wires on both sides of the boat so this is probably a necessary evil. Should I just try to keep them as far apart as possible? Is there any other shielding necessary?

I have a Tsunami capacitor with built in distribution blocks. It is probably cheaper for me to run 1 big power & ground wire as far up as I can then split into the 3 separate lines for each amp. I will have about a 14 foot run to where they would split and will be powering 2 amps that are 60 watts rms x 4 and a sub amp that is 500 watts rms x 1 (all at 4 ohms). So from what I have read, I believe I need 2 gauge wire (possibly 4 gauge??) before the split. I would probably run 8 gauge for the short run (about 3-4 ft) to each of the amps after the split. Does that sound correct?

If that all sounds good then I have to deal with getting three amps and the capacitor all under the dash. Any space savings tricks for this?

I thought about making a "divider" instead of just mounting them to the back or side wall. I would attach a perforated sheet (for air circulation) to the back or side wall spaced out about 6 inches or so. Then I could attach amps to both sides of this sheet (vertically) instead of only getting one on the back wall. Does that make sense?? Will they get too hot? I am not even sure if I can do this but it would give me more mounting area.

You are correct about the compass, I do not have one. The sub is an Alpine Type R SWR-M100. Any tips for that installation would be great!!

Another concern, I have seen some discussion about PAC LC1 gain control knobs. These sound like a good way to control the fade between the boat and tower speakers. But, if I use them wouldn't I have to run RCA patch cords from the HU all the way over to the drivers seat (for the control knob) then back to the amps (that are mounted next to the head unit)? Seems like a lot of patch cords?? I will have the HU fader adjustment but this isn't adjustable through the wired remote.

Thanks again!!

[chpthril]

I assume that it is not good to run the power lines with the speaker wires. I will have speakers wires on both sides of the boat so this is probably a necessary evil. Should I just try to keep them as far apart as possible? Is there any other shielding necessary?

Power and speaker wire run together is typically not a problem, noise is most often introduced in the signal (RCA's) wires between H/U and amp.

I have a Tsunami capacitor with built in distribution blocks. It is probably cheaper for me to run 1 big power & ground wire as far up as I can then split into the 3 separate lines for each amp. I will have about a 14 foot run to where they would split and will be powering 2 amps that are 60 watts rms x 4 and a sub amp that is 500 watts rms x 1 (all at 4 ohms). So from what I have read, I believe I need 2 gauge wire (possibly 4 gauge??) before the split. I would probably run 8 gauge for the short run (about 3-4 ft) to each of the amps after the split. Does that sound correct?

Trade the Cap for a pair of non-fused dist blocks. Cheaper and cleaner to run 1 power and ground from the battery to the amp wall. Need to add up the amp's fuses to see what size amp wire you need, but with 3 amp, I'm thinking you may be looking at 1/0ga wire from the batteries to the dist blocks and 4ga from the blocks to the amps. Dont forget some circuit protection, I prefer a circuit breaker at the battery. Again, need to know what the amps max draw could be.

[chpthril]

Typicall sub installed in the driver's side balk-head


Back side of the same wall with carpet cut away showing the perferated cut-out for a 10" found on Tige for a number of years back. This boat was getting a 12" and a sealed box, hence the carpet removed.


A couple of views of my amps, they are smaced off the wall about 3/4" for air circulation

[tige']

Here is the capacitor I have:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_120X15...d.html?tp=2614

I thought this would be clean to use since there is only one set of connections for each of the amps. Is this not a good choice, I thought I got a pretty good deal on it through e-bay??


Here is a chart I found for sizing wire:
http://www.crutchfield.com/Learn/lea...uge_chart.html

Using the chart above for my amps, (2) amps at 60 watts rms x 4 channels and (1) 500 watts rms x 1, I came up with 142 amps. At 14 feet that is 2 gauge wire. My length measurement was conservative (it is probably closer to 10 -12 feet) and depending where I mount the cap even less. I could use 4 gauge per this chart.

The more I think about it, the idea of running the RCA patch cords for the PAC LC1 controls has me wondering if my amp locations are good choices. Do people usually run long patch cords from the amp to the boat controls and back?

I would probably just need one control for the boat speakers as the sub amp already came with a control knob.

Thanks again!

[chpthril]

Your 2ga power/ground looks ok.

Send back the $350 Cap and get 2 3-way 2ga in/4ga out non-fused Dist blocks such as the StreetWires DBX30's https://www.crutchfield.com/p_211DBX...0.html?tp=3001 $39 ea. If you like the BLING factor of the digital blocks, check out the BlackIce series from Blackmore http://blackmoremobile.com/prod/shop...?hid=72&cid=75

Get a 150A Marine rated Manual-reset circuit breaker from www.waytechwire.com #46874 http://order.waytekwire.com/productdetail/M37/46874

And get a Kicker Comp VR10 (400W's RMS) that would really pound when mated with your 500W's mono amp.

Your current planned amp location is perfect. No problem running extended RCA's for the PAC's, just set gain after it's hooked up but any line voltage drop will be minimal. Another solution would be the Wet Sounds w/s-420 EQ with mic http://www.wetsounds.com/pages/products/WS-420.html or one of the Kicker KQ Signal Processors http://www.kicker.com/06/kicker_home.html

Some Peeps like to use one for the cabin and tower amps so each can be volumed up/down as needed. This can also be done with the fade in the H/U but not always accessible through the remotes.

I know a great source for any/all of this if needed

[philwsailz]

Hey Tige-

A quick question: Are the power ratings you provided for the amplifiers "peak" power or RMS power?

My reasoning is CHP's subwoofer recommendation. That is the first time I had given it any thought, but will tell you that if your 500 watt sub amp is 500 watts peak power, it is more like 150 or so watts RMS. It makes a difference...

I also wanto to point out that Kicker makes a good distribution block and fuse holed as part of its accessories line. If you were buying anything KICKER, it might be worth checking out. CHP has pricing on thoswe too... By the way, he is a retail dealer for Kicker and I believe Wetsounds too, so his hint about knwoing someone, well it is him... He is good, and will treat you right.


I agree with the recommendation to return the $350.00 capacitor. They are usually just bandaids. A capacitor will do nothing to very little in a properly wired system.

Keep us posted, and let us kn ow the RMS power output of the amps!

Have a great day!

[tige']

The amp ratings I gave are RMS. All three amps are Cadence amps. 2 are SQA-4 and the sub is SQA-1.

I only paid $165 for the capacitor on e-bay. I figured by the time I bought 2 distribution blocks I wasn't paying much more for the capacitor??

I thought I would bridge the waketower speaker amp and just run 4 wires (2 sets) for all four speakers on the tower - smaller holes in the tower and less cost for wire. Will this perform the same as running four sets (8 wires) and wiring each speaker independently?

Any tips for drilling the hole and running the wires through the gunwhale? I installed the tower myself so I know about drilling in reverse through the fiberglass. Is there any other way to avoid drilling this hole to get the wires to the tower (I guess there isn't??)

Oh, I really like the idea of the circuit breaker Chpthrl gave me (thanks!). I will be adding that. It is nice that it will also function as a disconnect unlike a regular fuse. With the watt values being rms is 150 amp the correct size I need?

Thanks again guys, really appreciate the help. I am excited to get all of this in and hear how it sounds - too bad it will be 6 months before I can get it out in the water!!

[chpthril]

The amp ratings I gave are RMS. All three amps are Cadence amps. 2 are SQA-4 and the sub is SQA-1.

I only paid $165 for the capacitor on e-bay. I figured by the time I bought 2 distribution blocks I wasn't paying much more for the capacitor??

A dedicated stereo battery will serve you better then a Cap, in more ways then one as well.

I thought I would bridge the waketower speaker amp and just run 4 wires (2 sets) for all four speakers on the tower - smaller holes in the tower and less cost for wire. Will this perform the same as running four sets (8 wires) and wiring each speaker independently?

Probably not going to be a great idea: Odds are, your tower speakers have an impedance of 4ohm each. In bridge mode, if wired in parallel, the amp will see and internal resistance of 1ohm when a load of 2ohms is bridged across the 2 chnls. Most amps are only stable for a minimum of 4ohms in bridge mode, and will run extremely warm and clip the signal, this can result in damage to amp and ore drivers. If wired in series (8ohm) and bridged, the greatly reduces the amps output to the speakers, which in turn, split the available Watts. End result is poor performance.

Wire them one speaker per chnl (1 speaker wire pair per speaker up tower -speaker wire is cheap) or, swap to a 2chnl amp that will deliver sufficient power to the speakers when wired in parallel ( remember, a single chnl is stable to 2ohms)

Any tips for drilling the hole and running the wires through the gunwhale? I installed the tower myself so I know about drilling in reverse through the fiberglass. Is there any other way to avoid drilling this hole to get the wires to the tower (I guess there isn't??)

What boat and tower do you have, pics help A LOT.

Oh, I really like the idea of the circuit breaker Chpthrl gave me (thanks!). I will be adding that. It is nice that it will also function as a disconnect unlike a regular fuse. With the watt values being rms is 150 amp the correct size I need?

Thanks again guys, really appreciate the help. I am excited to get all of this in and hear how it sounds - too bad it will be 6 months before I can get it out in the water!!

[/QUOTE]

Just to be sure on the breaker size, what is the sum of the 3 amp's fusses? This will be the potential load that you need to protect for, this is also the current draw I like to use for the power/ground wire size, less math involved

[xpjim1]

Also it appears that the SQA amps only have external fuses. You might want to consider a fused distribution box as close to the amps as possible. The fuse holders cadence supplies are pretty cheap.

Add up the amps from the 3 fuse holders cadence supplied to give Mike the total

[tige']

This is how I was thinking of wiring the tower speakers (copied from another post):

Wire the tower in bridged mode, one pair of tower speakers to CH4+ & CH3-, the other pair of tower speakers to CH2+ & CH1-

Up on the tower you will wire the speakers up as follows:

Speaker A+ to CH4+
Speaker A- to Speaker B+
Speaker B- to CH3-

Speaker C+ to CH2+
Speaker C- to Speaker D+
Speaker D- to CH1-

This will result in an 8 ohm load on each bridged channel of the amp, or a 4 ohm load on each non-bridged channel of the amp (design load). The little secret here is that inside the amp CH4- and CH3+ are connected together, same for CH2- and CH1+. So this is electrically exactly the same as hooking one speaker to each channel (assuming neither speaker is blown)

Doesn't really matter to me, I could run four sets of wires but the wiring above sounded like it would enable me to use less wire and smaller holes??

I can't argue the point about the Cadence fuse holders being cheap, they don't look like anything special...I can't even find the amp rating on them or in the manual so I don't know for sure what they even are...I just sent them an e-mail to find out. So much for being able to add them up...

I was trying to figure the size of the main fuse (or circuit breaker) based on the main power supply wire (2 gauge) and let the in-line fuses protect the amps.

I will definitely be adding a second battery. But that will be a whole other project in itself. Isolaters, Perko switches, solenoids, etc... Need to learn all about that stuff next.

Again guys, I appreciate all the help. I am learning more about this then I ever thought possible. I have learned just enough to be dangerous at this point. I probably should have started here before ordering the equipment but I just stumbled onto this forum while researching.

[chpthril]

This is how I was thinking of wiring the tower speakers (copied from another post):



Doesn't really matter to me, I could run four sets of wires but the wiring above sounded like it would enable me to use less wire and smaller holes??

I can't argue the point about the Cadence fuse holders being cheap, they don't look like anything special...I can't even find the amp rating on them or in the manual so I don't know for sure what they even are...I just sent them an e-mail to find out. So much for being able to add them up...

I was trying to figure the size of the main fuse (or circuit breaker) based on the main power supply wire (2 gauge) and let the in-line fuses protect the amps.

I will definitely be adding a second battery. But that will be a whole other project in itself. Isolaters, Perko switches, solenoids, etc... Need to learn all about that stuff next.

Again guys, I appreciate all the help. I am learning more about this then I ever thought possible. I have learned just enough to be dangerous at this point. I probably should have started here before ordering the equipment but I just stumbled onto this forum while researching.

Wired in series (8ohm load as described above) is a safe way to do it, but I think it will result in the less then 60W p/driver when wire one per chnl @ 4ohm, lets get Phil's expert input on this. Exactly what speakers did you go with, lets start there. We need to see what kinda juice they need to perform satisfactorly. As far as speaker wire for the tower, you can run 16ga for each speaker, but i'd go 12ga if you plan to pair them up.

If you have the amps, unpack them and look at the side where the power/gnd/rmt wires attach, you will see 2-3 plug-in style ATO auto fuses, just add them up for each amp, then add the total up, example: the SQA-1 may have 2 30a fuses = 60, the 2 SQA-4's may have 2 20A = 40 each - 60+40+40=140A draw.

Yes, amp's fuses are there to pop if the amp it's self has a problem, the circuit breaker, mounted as close to the battery as possible, is there to protect the power wire and boat. The odds of a short in a boat are slim, but not worth rolling the dice IMO.

For a 2nd battery set-up. check out the Add-A-Battery kit from Blue Sea www.bluesea.com

[philwsailz]

Wired in series (8ohm load as described above) is a safe way to do it, but I think it will result in the less then 60W p/driver when wire one per chnl @ 4ohm, lets get Phil's expert input on this. Exactly what speakers did you go with, lets start there. We need to see what kinda juice they need to perform satisfactorly. As far as speaker wire for the tower, you can run 16ga for each speaker, but i'd go 12ga if you plan to pair them up.

If you have the amps, unpack them and look at the side where the power/gnd/rmt wires attach, you will see 2-3 plug-in style ATO auto fuses, just add them up for each amp, then add the total up, example: the SQA-1 may have 2 30a fuses = 60, the 2 SQA-4's may have 2 20A = 40 each - 60+40+40=140A draw.

Yes, amp's fuses are there to pop if the amp it's self has a problem, the circuit breaker, mounted as close to the battery as possible, is there to protect the power wire and boat. The odds of a short in a boat are slim, but not worth rolling the dice IMO.

For a 2nd battery set-up. check out the Add-A-Battery kit from Blue Sea www.bluesea.com

Series wiring the speakers to an 8-ohm load and then showing that 8-ohm load to a bridged pair will deliver the same power as one wire pair per speaker/ one speaker per amp channel. It is an okay way to go if you can't or do not want to put a wire pair per speaker. Still it is bettter to wire each speaker back to the amp, and give each speaker its own amp channel.

CHP is right. amp fuses are for the amps. It is your job to provide the protection for the wire and the boat. That can be a breaker or a fuse, and it needs to be right at the battery.

I agree with him too on figuring out what size protection to put at the battery. just add up the values for all fuses that are on all the amps. If you add the fuses to 140, a 150 amp fuse or breaker is fine.

And again.. ditch the cap... Sell it to the next guy who thinks they do something and take the money and invest in batteries; depending on the deals you find, you might be able to buy TWO batteries for what you gave for the cap...