Residential/commercial Electrical Help

[chpthril]

Anyone here do res/com electrical? Need some help with a head scratcher.

Scenario: outside light and dinning room light/fan are out. Been random working/not working for a couple months, but now out for a couple weeks. They are on the same breaker. the dinning room light/fan and the outside light are supplied by the same jumper feed. There are receptacles and the den light/fan on the same breaker, but the dinning and outside lights are the only things not working.

Now, here's the confusing part. I can measure 120V on the bare and white and again on bare and black at the junction behind the outside light switch. I can watch the voltage go away when the switch is down, and back when the switch is up. Same with the breaker off and on. BUT THE DANG BULB DOES NOT COME ON!

No, its not the bulb. Wired up a new porch light I had for mom and dads house, so its not the socket.

WTF have I got going on! Voltage but no lights or fan?

We have updated all the receptacles in the den and foyer, but its been at least a year, since those were done. So well ahead of this issue. My gut says there could be an issue at the last receptacle before the circuit goes to the outside light and den light/fan switch box. I cant wrap my head around the presents of voltage but no light! My only thought is not enough of a connection to pass current?

My plan tomorrow, is to trace from the panel to junction #1 and so one, hoping to find the last junction prior to the suspect switches. Then pull that junction apart.

Thanks,

[gumby]

chpthril sounds to me like a receptacle or switch it being used as the junction. that is bad news!!!! when they fail they arc. junctions should be made wire to wire and pig tale to the receptacle/switch. It is code!!!! but have seen bran new houses done with the receptacle or switch used as a junction. I don't know how they get away with it. Hope this makes sense if not you got my # give me a call.

[chpthril]

Our house was built in the early 90s, so code may have changed.

When I say "junction", I mean that the top left and right terminals of a receptacle are the input and the bottom are the output to the next receptacle. So basically, each receptacle is in parallel, I think this is common practice, as opposed to home running every receptacle or switch back to the panel.

[gumby]

Yes the way you describe is wrong They don’t have to be home runs the switch should be the junction though. If the wire continues commons all tie of corse. The hot”s should also all tie under a wire nut nothing connected to the switch so how do you get power to the switch? Tie a pig tail in with the power wire (say 6-8inch ) Run the pig to the switch and then the light leg to the switch.
rev
Receptacles are the same with the exception you will need a pig off the common and the hot there should only be 2 wires on any receptacle the wire that continues on should be connected to the wire coming in with wire nuts NOT the receptacle. This way if the receptacle fails it is just that receptacle not all the ones down stream of it.

[gumby]

The switch shouldn’t be the junction what I ment to say can’t edit

[chpthril]

The only way a failed receptacle would take out the downstream receptacle, is if the receptacle was somehow in series. But they are in parallel. Each receptacle has 2 hots and 2 commons. Each terminal pair is in parallel. Theres a hot IN and a hot OUT and on the other side is the common IN and common OUT. This eliminates the need for a short pigtail for each, and two wire nuts just ot have the circuit jump over to the next receptacle.

Now, the switches are a little different, because they only have terminals, the hot goes through the switch and the common has to wire-nut to the leg going to the fixture. You would also need to split the hot if you had two switches next to each other, fed by the same supply from the breaker.

Again this is a early 90s house thats had no issues until this random issue. Its not new construction. All the new switches and receptacles were swapped over one wire at a time, so the new ones went in just like the old ones came out.

Still trying to figure out how I have switched voltage at the outside light fixture, yet no light. Ive ohm'd the fixtures white to the socket's outer and the black to the sockets center.

Tomorrow, im pulling the fan/light wires apart to test for voltage and ohm the light socket and fan motor.

[gumby]

This is the way it should be done. A failed receptacle or switch can arc and cause the problems you are having. and it might be receptacle or switch you are working with. Especially if they've used the push plugs in the back. for 14 ga
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8Ic4L0niS8

[gumby]

[chpthril]

So I ohm'd out the ceiling fan motor and light sockets. So ive proved to myself, its not either of the fixtures.

I tried tracing the entire circuit, but it looks like it goes through walls once it leaves the first receptacle. I pilled all the receptacles and switches on the circuit, and check all the connections.

So, the conclusion is, the issue is on the white neutral. Since I do not know which switch or receptacle is the last one prior to jumping to the two switches where the problem is, im done hunting for the issue.

Solution; cut the suspect leg off the fan and outside light switches, and run a new circuit from the box direct to the breaker panel. Connect direct to the breaker with the black and to the main neutral with the white. To hell with the back jumper that somewhere in the wall.

Got a guy thats going to do this, as soon as he can.

[gumby]

Well you got a plan that sounds good. At least you know where you're going. I couldn't figure out how to explain exactly what I meant thank good for YouTube. LOL

[chpthril]

Final update, its resolved!

So, my guy rescheduled twice and then failed to call me back to schedule again last week. SO I decided to just pull the new run myself and be done with it.

So we stopped by the hardware store yesterday and picked up a 100ft of 14/2. I think I know why he bailed on me. A 100ft of cable is $90. He quoted me $150 parts/labor to do the job. I think he works for an electrician and is trying to spin off and do his own gig. I think he planned to sneak off a job site with the cabling he needed and it didnt work out. Once he priced what he would have to pay for cable alone, he knew he way underbid the job. It would not be an easy job. The hardest part of the job, would be at the shallowest point of my crawlspace, about 24".

Now, im a work smart, not hard kinda guy, why I was willing to pay someone to do it, But I had an ideal this morning. Below and to the left of the non-operative switches, is a working receptacle that on a different breaker. IF was lucky, it would on the right side of the stub, putting both in the same wall cavity. I got lucky!

Took me about 15 minutes to get my glow stick and a string from one box to the other and about 30 more to get everything wired up at both ends and button up the switches and receptacle.

Before anyone grills me for adding additional loads to an existing circuit that was not designed for it, hear me out. The circuit with the outside and dining room light/fan, also powers

front outside light
foyer light
hall receptacle that has the dehumidifier, aquarium light, pump, filter and heater.
Den receptacles that power 3 laptops, 2 lamps, TV, modem, router and surround sound/dvd
Den ceiling fan/light

These are used all the time! So I actually reduced the load, and added it to a circuit with a few receptacles that are almost never used or have very little load, when they are.

The best part of this repair was that I only needed 4ft of cable, I had some scraps in the storage building. So I can return the unused 100ft. All ill have in this is the $50 bucks that I paid the kid to mis-diagnose that it was a power surge that took out the both fixtures. I knew it was not my new outside light and ceiling fan/light that got upgraded during the height of covid.