Voltage Sensitive relay and Perko switch questions

[talltigeguy]

I think that the questions that I have will apply to most newer Tige's as well, and I know that I generally get smarter answers here than on the MC owners website, so here goes: I have 2 questions about my 06 X-45. The boat has both a perko switch and a module labeled 'Voltage Sensitive Relay' (VSR) going to 2 batteries. My understanding of how this works is that the Voltage sensitive relay charges one of the batteries until is senses that it is fully charged, and then it will put power to the other battery.

Question 1: How does the Perko switch fit in? I think that the switch tells the VSR which battery is the starting battery, so it knows which battery to charge first. So that can be set to 1, 2, both or none. Am I right to think this is somewhat retarded? My amps are wired straight to battery #2. It would seem to me that the perko switch would only serve to confuse the VSR and leave me with a dead starting battery. Or Maybe I am supposed to only use the Perko switch in the 1 or 0ff position so that I never confuse the boat about what battery to charge up first?

Question 2: I have upgraded the power of the stereo system substantially and really think that 3 batteries are going to be better, so I am thinking of adding a 3rd battery to the setup so that I can have a bank of 2 batteries dedicated to the stereo and then 1 battery that is only used for starting. The third battery will have to go to a place that is only 8 inches deep, which means I am looking at sealed batteries that will have to lay on its side. If the 2 stereo batts are separated from the sealed battery (probably an Optima) then will I be OK as far as keeping them all charged? Or would I be risking problems due to different charge rates and discharge rates if I did not go with 3 identical batteries?

[Paublo]

Tall
Huh? That is my first reaction. Great questions, but I got a headache trying to figure it out this early in the morning- and I'm suppose to be an engineer. I think some of the answer may depend on exactly how it is currently wired. I would carefully draw an as-built of how it is currently wired and post it here. Otherwise there are too many assumptions and guesses.

[talltigeguy]

This much I can tell you while I am at work.

The grounds are together and go to the engine block.

The power wire from 1 battery goes to '1' on the perko switch.

The power wire from the other battery goes to '2' on the perko switch.

The alternator wire goes into the VSR module.

[SPBFAN]

This is easy. The VSR is a isolator in a sense but not. All it does is sense voltage. So Werther your on battery 1 or 2 or both it does not matter. The VSR is a device intended to save the Alternator. It does not have any real relation to which battery it is charging. What happens is it senses battery voltage. If Battery voltage drops below 10.2 volts which in most cases is needed as a minimum voltage to start a car/boat it will then switch and cause the alternator field to turn on and start charging the batteries. Even though your gauge on the dash will say 13V+ with the engine running that may not be going to the batteries at that time it will probably read closer to 14.5 or 15 Volts if it is charging the batteries. The VSR basically controls the amperage output so the Alt. is not always working at full load.

So the perko switch still has its place. I would put the switch on Battery 1 and 2 when running the boat and when stopped and goofing off listening to tunes put it on battery one or two.

Now to address the issue of boat battery additions. If you are going to have two batteries for the stereo it will not hurt to have one Optima and to wet cells. What has to happen is you will use the two wet cells for the stereo and the optima as the back up # 2 start battery. At this point I would make sure that you are not running the two batteries at the same time unless it is an absolute must. It will over load your VSR and Alternator possibly creating a failure.

You have my number and can call any time if this did not make sense.

[turbonine]

I had a hard time following this to without pictures and that I haven't had caffeine yet this morning.

I can say that I didn' not like the way the VSR work in my Malibu and pulled it out before I even had the boat on the water for the first time. I replaced it with a Yandina C100, which is a VSR also. It combines the batteries when voltage is above 13.3V (alternater running). The Perko switch is still there, but acts as a manual override when the alternator is not on (battery 1 is dead and you need to get to battery 2 to start).

http://www.yandina.com/c100InfoR3.htm

Wiring Diagram

[talltigeguy]

This is easy. The VSR is a isolator in a sense but not. All it does is sense voltage. So Werther your on battery 1 or 2 or both it does not matter. The VSR is a device intended to save the Alternator. It does not have any real relation to which battery it is charging. What happens is it senses battery voltage. If Battery voltage drops below 10.2 volts which in most cases is needed as a minimum voltage to start a car/boat it will then switch and cause the alternator field to turn on and start charging the batteries. Even though your gauge on the dash will say 13V+ with the engine running that may not be going to the batteries at that time it will probably read closer to 14.5 or 15 Volts if it is charging the batteries. The VSR basically controls the amperage output so the Alt. is not always working at full load.

Isn't that what the voltage regulator is supposed to do? I always thought the voltage regulator is a part of the alternator? Just like in an automobile.

There is some mumbo jumbo on the VSR about only being active when it senses less than 12.XX volts. So I know it kicks in a little sooner than 10.2, but the idea seems to be the same.

[shake-n-bake]

I would think the need for the extra battery is if you spend a lot of time running the stereo with the boat off. A deep cycle battery is designed to be fully charged and the run down and then recharged. The amount of amps that your stereo pulls would determine how many batteries you would need for the amount of time sitting without the boat running. Otherwise it would be the amount of amps that your alternator is putting out to keep the batteries charged up while you are running, and you wouldnt need another battery.

[noworries]

Looking through the Yadina instructions it would seem that you generally leave the Perko on #1 (starting battery). When it's charged, the Combiner directs the charging current to the house batteries (#2). The blue wire appears to be for any Gel batteries to limit the voltage applied to them.

You'd only switch the Perko to both or #2 if your starting battery died for some reason and you wanted to start the engine off #2. Although, if you set it to #2, your stereo batteries would charge first.

[turbonine]

Looking through the Yadina instructions it would seem that you generally leave the Perko on #1 (starting battery). When it's charged, the Combiner directs the charging current to the house batteries (#2). The blue wire appears to be for any Gel batteries to limit the voltage applied to them.

You'd only switch the Perko to both or #2 if your starting battery died for some reason and you wanted to start the engine off #2. Although, if you set it to #2, your stereo batteries would charge first.

Almost. The combiner just senses when the alternater is running, not when a battery is charged. When the alternater is running, it connects #1 and #2 on the Perko, so both are charged at the same time. This way you never have to switch the Perko to get #2 charged. The only reason you ever move the perko is if #1 is dead and you need to use #2.

[noworries]

Almost. The combiner just senses when the alternater is running, not when a battery is charged. When the alternater is running, it connects #1 and #2 on the Perko, so both are charged at the same time. This way you never have to switch the Perko to get #2 charged. The only reason you ever move the perko is if #1 is dead and you need to use #2.

From the Instructions:
The green “Combined” light will come on some time after charging has commenced. The time delay depends on how much current is being delivered to the bank being charged and its initial state of charge. When the initial bank reaches 13.3 volts (±1%) the other bank(s) will be placed in parallel by the Combiner 100.

It looks like when the current into the connected battery drops off the other bank is added in.

[talltigeguy]

From the Instructions:
The green “Combined” light will come on some time after charging has commenced. The time delay depends on how much current is being delivered to the bank being charged and its initial state of charge. When the initial bank reaches 13.3 volts (±1%) the other bank(s) will be placed in parallel by the Combiner 100.

It looks like when the current into the connected battery drops off the other bank is added in.

You've got it backwards. When the current in the first battery is sufficiently high (not low) then the combiner will begin charging the other bank of batteries.

[formandfunction]

There are also several companies that make battery isolators that kinda act like a one way valve for electric current.That way you can have all your batteries linked together without the stereo draining the starter battery.

[chpthril]

I read this this AM, but did not have time to post, damn work

Ok, you say that the Alt output (charge) wire runs to the VSR? Is there only 1 wire running to it, or are there other wire running to/from it? Are they POS or NEG, this may giv a clue as to how it functions. 90% of diagnosing something, is knowing how it works when operating as designed. I dont know if the VSR is an external regulator or a diode type Iso, how it's wired will tell us.

I have issues with mixing different types (lead acid wet-cell, AGM (absorbed glass matt), etc, in the same battery bank. If you have different types on your boat, and they are connected to a central charging system, they NEED to be isolated by either an ACR (solenoid type Iso) or a diode type Iso. Mixing battery types in the same bank, as when wired in parallel (+ to +, -to-), can leave one under charged or over charged because the different types charge at different rates.

Adding a 2nd battery to your Bank2 stereo bank is easy, wire them in parellel. The distance between them will decide on the size (ga) of cable needed. Your Alt is probably a 90A alt. If they are close to each other, all you need is 4ga battery cable.

[R&T Babich]

I originally had installed a 2 battery isolator in our boat. The isolator is a pair of high current diodes with a large heat sink around them. The alternator output is connected in between the diodes which allows current to flow out thru each diode to a battery. Current can't flow backward thru a diode so the batteries are "isloated". One issue with this setup is the diodes keep the batteries from being completely charged by about .7 volt, among other things. I ran our last boat for 5 years with this setup and in practice had no issues.

I think a voltage sensitive relay (VSR), automatic charging relay (ACR) or a combiner are all essentially different companies version of the same thing - a relay that will latch when a voltage sensing circuit reaches 13.3v. With this setup (which I just installed) the alternator output is connected to the ACR and the pass-thru always connected output goes to battery 1. When the alternator output reaches 13.3v the relay will latch connecting/combining battery 2 to the alternator for charging. Both batteries are charging at the same time. An LED will indicate when the relay is latched. The LED (on my Blue Sea 7610) will blink when the voltage is low or when starting the engine. When starting the voltage normally drops to below 10.5v. I don't think there is any feedback to the alternator to adjust the output or protect it. The voltage regulator will protect the alternator and adjust it's output. An alternator can output up to 16.5v, but is usually regulated to a max around 14.5v. The max amps is limited by the coil windings, armature size, etc.

I also added a Perko 1,BOTH,2 switch and there are various ways to hook up the circuits. Mine is wired to control the power going to the starter/engine and has nothing to do with charging. The switch is normally set to battery 1 which connects battery 1 to the starter/engine. If battery 1 dies (shorted cell for example) the switch can be changed to connect battery 2 to the starter/engine. If battery 1 is just low, then I can switch to BOTH to get the engine started and let it run for awhile to charge up battery 1. I have used BOTH a couple of times and 2 once.

Note: Don't change switch positions with the engine running unless you're sure the switch has the alternator field disconnect feature. You might blow a diode in the rectifier circuit.

I'm thinking of adding another switch - a Dual Circuit ON/OFF (Blue Sea 6010).
The output of battery 1 and battery 2 would go thru this switch. Off season or just whenever all battery power can be turned OFF with this master switch. Also, all accessory power connections made at the battery can be moved to this switch leaving the large red connection to each battery decreasing connector corrosion issues and eliminating wiring confusion when changing batteries.

[dogbert]

I'm going to go with what R&T Babich said.