If GM FAILS

[spenchey2]

DING DING!!



I do not buy this argument. Chapter 11 would allow them to reorganize and get out of the ridiculous contracts with the UAW. They currently have 2 workers for every retiree with a big pension and benefits. That is simply impossible to maintain. The parts makers would go for a bumpy ride and then be back as quickly as the car company. They will not go away, just get reorganized with the rest of the auto industry, and come out leaner and meaner.

Ray Thompson makes the most sense to me...read his post again.

Back to boat engines...have any of you noticed what is stamped on the rear of your block? Mine said in nice big letters "HECHO EN MEXICO" on my MP 340HP engine. There will still be plenty of places to get an engine if GM fails.

Why don't the unions just take the changes that are suppose to take place in 2010 and change them to now? No need to BK, no worries about warranty.

Are you sure GM still doesn't make that engine?

And to who ever said Ford is in the worst position, thats wrong. Ford is actually in the BEST position. The first time the testified before the financial oversite committee Mullay said he was there in support of the industry and Ford would not need any of the cash now but if conditions worsened they would need it.

[spenchey2]

Isuzu makes the Duramax so that could always be an option if Isuzu survived GM's demise.

Seriously, how could they go completely under by filing bankruptcy when they have billions upon billions in revenue? I believe that they don't want to throw the unions under the bus since they are their livelihood right now and if they get rid of them, most of those workers will just stand outside and picket and they won't be able to make cars and maybe that's what they are afraid of (and how they could go under I suppose).

The argument is if the file BK no one will buy from the company because it is chpt 11 and has the era of "failing" around it so it might not be able to pay your warranty claims.

[chpthril]

Why don't the unions just take the changes that are suppose to take place in 2010 and change them to now? No need to BK, no worries about warranty.

Are you sure GM still doesn't make that engine?

And to who ever said Ford is in the worst position, thats wrong. Ford is actually in the BEST position. The first time the testified before the financial oversite committee Mullay said he was there in support of the industry and Ford would not need any of the cash now but if conditions worsened they would need it.

I'm 99% sure GM still owns the mold to all their engines, they are probably just cast south of the border, either in house or sub-let.

[dogbert]

Regardless, if GM goes under, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no more GM engines. It's funny how those things get spun off and turn into viable businesses.

[spenchey2]

Regardless, if GM goes under, it doesn't necessarily mean there's no more GM engines. It's funny how those things get spun off and turn into viable businesses.

Im sure if GM own the patent to it and they ultimately do go under they would see no reason to sell the rights the product. It would not help them out one bit.

[Domsz06]

I think the union may have less support than you think. Newer union workers are making a fraction of what the protected old timers and retirees are making.

I think they make a ton more then u think. 75 dollars an hr to push a button to install windshields, yeah they make some money.

Before any american car hits the line it costs 2-3000 dollars just before it even hits the production line.

That hurts!!

[dogbert]

Im sure if GM own the patent to it and they ultimately do go under they would see no reason to sell the rights the product. It would not help them out one bit.

If they go under, it's a fire sale and everything goes. Someone will buy the patents and the designs for pennies on the dollar. The good news is the price might go down.

[scoot18]

So what would you do if Tige' had to use: lets say the same 5.7 Toyota uses in their Tundras?

"I wouldn't buy it!"

I'm 99% sure GM still owns the mold to all their engines, they are probably just cast south of the border, either in house or sub-let.

There is a casting plant in Romulus Mexico for the 5.7, one of several different locations.

As far as parts and availability, the 5.7 is probably the most popular and widely used engine platform ever! Used in cars, trucks, boats, heavy equipment, generators, construction machinery. Heck there is even a motor cycle with the 5.7 in it. Parts and suppliers are so abundant we should never have a problem, many of the marine parts a more robust and durable than automotive applications though.

[scoot18]

I sure hope GM, Ford nor Chrysler have to fail. These are all ICON's of American industry and inginuity, and we need them. I am sure that there spending in many areas has been quite wasteful, esp many of the large inflated bonuses that the upper exec levels get. At least to our knowledge they aren't swindeling or scaming hard working Americans out of their life savings and investments like a few of those companies from a few years ago that got busted, you know the ones.

I planned on owning GM cars and trucks my entire life, it is what I like, I can't imagine not being able to buy one. If they are gone, I would have to move to Ford or Chrysler and if they weren't there either, not sure what I would do, buying import isn't really an option for me. I guess I would be driving a schwinn, (heck and even that is probably made in China) it would be kind of hard to tow the tige' with that.

They need to get rid of the union, "UAW out," it has served it's purpose and place but is out dated and just a loop hole for abuse and financial burden towards the manufacture. They just don't get it, if the UAW isn't willing to comprimize, they all go down. And it's far more than cars and trucks, losing the big three will afect far more that just line workers, dealers, and suppliers, there will be so much lost revenue in so many area's of our economy, everyone will know someone who has been hurt or devistated by these loses and closures.

[RubberDucky]

The union is what is killing GM.They have people that can do the work but are so lazy and are protected by the union that they have to out source the work to get the job done. My buddy use to be a mechanical engineer for them and quite because it got rediculus. So unless they don't fix the union they are asking for trouble.

The volt is not what is going to bring GM through. The reason i say this is because Chrysler has a line up of range extended vehicle that are going to be released in the 2010 model year they are going to be able to carry up to 7 people and is a jeep and has the close to the same performace as the volt.

I am curious to see what the future holds for boating. A boat with a small motor that powers a electric drive motor?

[Domsz06]

interesting facts rubberducky!

I agree that GM is always a bit too late on model releases, look at the camero for example. The mustang and challenger are already out. and the camero is too expensive. Not smart GM

[jake]

If GM fails I would think there would be a chapter 11 filing first to allow them to re-organize product line, re-negotiate crippling union contracts and share a corporate jet with Ford. It is possible that they fall on harder times and fail and entirely possible that the marine industry purchase inventory ( highly unlikely) of the Vortex 5.7 block and associated component rights are sold off to highest bidder and needed demand which Could be MP,PCM, Ind mar etc. I would bet on reorganization and the Vortex stays with GM because it is an asset and a probable money maker for them.

MoneyPit is right.

[jake]

interesting facts rubberducky!

I agree that GM is always a bit too late on model releases, look at the camero for example. The mustang and challenger are already out. and the camero is too expensive. Not smart GM

Too expensive for who? Each dealer must presale 30. From what I hear back in Detroit, orders are full.
Price is realitive. Look at ski boats. Way over priced.
If you want one, you'll find a way to get one.

[sparky216]

Would you fly on an airline that was in bankruptcy? Would you buy a ticket from that company? My point is that the airlines have been going forever under Chapter 11 so why wouldn't GM? They are selling cars, maybe not as many as they were but the Silverado was the #2 selling vehicle for the month of October beating out the Toyota Camry again. They have plenty of income it's just their spending is way out of control and hopefully Chapter 11 will allow them to renegotiate some of their contracts and bring some of their spending back in to line. I feel that Chapter 11 is the best solution for them and I own a car that is still under warranty by them.

Timmy,
I understand your argument, but your not comparing apples to apples in this scenario. The questions is, would you buy a three year commuter pass (if they were available) from an Airline in chapter 11? One flight like leasing a GM car for a few months, it's the long term commitment that would scare people.

[sparky216]

Yes, and I have done so with US Airways. But that is not a long term arrangement where I have to count on the airlines years later for transportation. If I buy the ticket with a credit card, the airline goes completely under, I get the CC company to refund the money. An airline going bankrupt is not going to make my $30K vehicle worthless because of a defective part.Agreed. Chapter 11 is not the end of the world. It merely provides protection while they reorganize. Most importantly it allows them to nullify contracts, especially with the UAW. The unions do not want that as it will significantly impact their position.Yes, particulary with the excesses of the unions that have to be satisfied. The labor costs are out of control and the union fails to realize this. The union may very well bargain their members out of a job. Union reps are not the smartest cactus in the desert and simple economics is way beyond their comprehension. Union reps are nothing more than lug nut monkeys that worked their way up the food chain. They did not get any smarter in the process.Agreed. Chapter 11 as I indicated earlier is not the end of the world. It will allow them to renegotiate the union contract. Get the labor costs down and GM, Ford, and Chrysler can be competitive again.

However, I do not own a GM vehicle and will not ever again. I got soured on the part problem with my Astro van. There is also the matter of leaking rear seals at 20K which they refused to cover (wear item); the speed sensor that failed which they refused to cover (wear item); broken drivers seat mount from improper reinforcement and cheap aluminum; front end ball joints that had to be replaced about every 10K miles (considered a wear item); etc. I was not at all impressed with the vehicle.

I own two Toyota products mostly because of the dealer relationship and their ability and willingness to stand behind the product. The Ford F-150 is OK as far as mechanics but the body is really poor quality, thick gaskets, cheap plastic, rear window leaks, etc.

One time when I was looking at a Dodge pickup (new) I drove the vehicle and informed the salesperson that the A/C was weak. He asked how much gas was in the tank. I said almost nothing. He said that is why the A/C was weak. When the gas gets low the A/C does not work as well. He was absolutely serious. My friend that was with me had to leave the showroom because he could not control his laughter. I followed shortly.

The big three, especially Chrysler, need to up the quality of their vehicles. They also need to make vehicles that consumers want. Chevrolet has some good looking cars in their current line up and the Volt looks very promising. If you doubt the quality of Chrysler look at the cheap plastic used on the headlights and how they yellow and haze over time.

I believe the big 3 will pull through although I am not 100% sure about Chrysler. If their backs are pushed against the wall, rather than looking for welfare, they will find a way to continue operations.

Well, we all have car problems at some point, I had a pos Passat once. GM is a huge company that I feel has made great strides in improving their quality over the years. I have a Tahoe and a Mercedes and I must say that the new lineup of Tahoes and Burbans compete with any X-5 or Toyota out there. My buddy just bought a new Camry, and I personally believe that the quality of those cars has gone downhill....but too each it's own.