Did I sieze the engine?

[Surfdad]

I'm done with it for the evening - I only got two plugs out, no water yet.


No jleger - the tranny is in neutral, on my boat the cutoff disengages the ignition, the engine TRIES to turn over but won't. It is looking more and more like hydrolock.

[sparky216]

I'm done with it for the evening - I only got two plugs out, no water yet.


No jleger - the tranny is in neutral, on my boat the cutoff disengages the ignition, the engine TRIES to turn over but won't. It is looking more and more like hydrolock.

Good luck SurfDad, I hope it's not seized. I couldn't sleep knowing there were 6 plugs left to undo and check.........

[Tanner]

Lee
Hydro lock, what is that and how would that happen?
Doesn't sound good.

If you'll read my post early on I sort of described it. But to go into a bit more detail its where water has made it's way into the cylinders, usually through a cracked head in my experience, but there are other ways for water ingestion to occur. The water sits on top of the cylinders and does not compress like air does. When the cylinder is on it's stroke and tries to compress the water it doesn't give way... thus causing bent rods and trashed blocks in severe cases.

More often than not in boats I've seen, and been the victim of what surf dad might have just got first hand experience with. Luckily in boats, in my experience, the motor gets turned off before anything happens to the rods and block. Of course I don't see near the amount that the dealers do, so my theory probably doesn't hold true. But generally the guys catch the burning smell and shut their motor off just in time. Then they try to restart the motor and the cylinders are full of water and it just won't start.

Although this is Hydrolock... I like to say it's psuedo hydrolock b/c the motor isn't actually seized up and destroyed. But it is technically locked up due to the water, so therefore it is actually hydrolocked.

[Tanner]

Surf dad, don't panic yet. If your rods and block are ok, and your handy with motors generally you can get the heads repaired for about $400-$500 and they'll be as good as new.

When you get your heads pressure checked, it would be wise to have your exhaust manifolds checked at the same time. I went through the same situation TWICE in a row b/c I forgot to check the manifolds as well. I toasted the manifolds and heads.

Just remember... do not touch that key until you got all the plugs out of the motor. Then when you do, have someone bump the key and see if water shoots out of the cylinders. You may try to identify which cylinder it's coming from and pay special attn to it when looking for damage on the piston and cylinder.

[chpthril]

Lee
Hydro lock, what is that and how would that happen?
Doesn't sound good.

Hydro = water. Hydro-locked is when liquid enters a cylinder and prevents the piston from traveling to it's TDC (Top Dead Center). Liquid is not compressible so it prevents the engine from rotating. Usually the liquid is water/coolent from a blown head gasket, cracked head, etc, but can be gas from a sensor or ecm malfunction. Sports cars can also ingest water from puddles during heavy ran or 4x4's while off-roading.

[dogbert]

It sure sounds like you had some issues with your belt before all this started. Somebody pointed out your alternator, which doesn't sound like it's charging. You should also check the bearings on your flywheels because they're probably shot.

BTW, I know you surf a lot. Your boat's pretty similar to mine and I have real issues with water coming into the blower vent when we stop to pick up a rider. With the boat listing away from the bilge pump, it really takes a lot to get it to pump out any water and by that time there's a fair amount sloshing around in the bilge. This all runs to the back of the bilge when you're surfing and guess what the two lowest components are attached to your motor, that's right, it's the alternator and the impeller. I haven't had issues with my impeller housing, but I think Moki has and he added a spacer or something to the fly wheel to get it to stop causing issues.

I finally moved my bilge pump closer to the transom and that's helped eliminate the exess water in my bilge while I'm driving.

[Surfdad]

Thanks everyone.

As long as I've owned this boat, I've had cooling system issues. Literally I go through two impellors a year. Prior to the current mechanic the old Tige' dealership wasn't replacing the housing (but charging me for it). When the new mechanic swapped that out - I got more life out of the impellor, but NOW I've gone through two thermostats, in as many years. Sheesh.

My vent is in the back center of the transom so I almost never have any accumulation of water in the bilge.

Yesterday, James idled us out and then wasn't feeling well, so Judy started to take us out, I finally took the helm after about 5-7 minutes and that's when I smelled the "heat" and checked the temp guage. James and Judy aren't accustomed to checking the temp guage. This is the third time it's overheated in maybe 18 months. In previous episodes normally the impellor self-destructs, sticks and the pulley stops turning. The result is a HORRIBLE screech and smoking belt. It's easy to shut down before anything overheats. The last time was a stuck thermostat, that is a bit insidious because, unless you are watching the guage, you can run it for 4-5 minutes before noticing the smell.

My guess is that we have a blown head gasket and as the good folks have pointed out the result is hydrolock. I'll finish pulling the plugs this evening and let everyone know.

I'm just hoping that the 4 times I tried to start the boat didn't result in bending the rods. The engine never started and it seems that it would kick back - never completing a compression stroke, despite what I thought.

[SPBFAN]

I'm just hoping that the 4 times I tried to start the boat didn't result in bending the rods. The engine never started and it seems that it would kick back - never completing a compression stroke, despite what I thought.

Another easy way to see if you have water in the engine and if you took on enough to hydro lock is to check your oil there could be moisture on the oil dip stick or a white foamy color to the oil.

If you did hydro lock you probably bent a rod if you were at a higher RPM. If you were just cranking it unless you got it to full cranking speed you only have about a 50% chance you bent a rod.

Sounds like water in the engine though. This is common for head gaskets to leak at the start of the year if the weatherization was not complete and accurate. Corrosion takes place over the winter while sitting and then when you run the boat your first couple of times out the rust holds up until it all gets washed away and then just when you think things are OK the rust gives out and the corroded gasket gives way and bang water in the cylinder.

[Surfdad]

It was running fine when I shut it down - no knocks, or unusual sounds. When I tried to start it, later, I don't believe that it turned over at all. It never started after I shut it down on the lake.

I checked the oil and it looked fine on the dip stick. No foam or froth...but if I shut it down before any water got into the crankcase while it was running, there probably wouldn't be any telltale signs like the frothing milkshake, right? I didn't see anything that looked like water or condensation on the stick. However, it looks like the level on the dipstick is HIGH which would seem to me, indicative that there is water in there somewhere.

[noworries]

If you get a loud THUNK when engaging the starter the bendix is being thrown into the flywheel and the engine is not turning. This is not good as it indicates something is preventing the crankshaft from rotating. If its just more of a CLICK, then its probably the starter solenoid engaging but the starter is not turning. Then it could be a bad starter. Not good either, but possibly much cheaper.

Definitely pull the spark plugs and try cranking it, or turning the crankshaft with a breaker bar and socket from the end of the crankshaft. An overfull reading on the dipstick could indicate water in the oil that hasn't foamed yet into a white froth. Oil will float on the water.

Chronic overheating could be caused by bits of destroyed impellers floating around in the engine blocking off water passages. Have you ever found any impeller bits when replacing the thermostats? Getting those bits out of an engine will be a mechanic's nightmare, but you will surely help him make HIS boat payment!

Also, have you used marine thermostats, or just automotive ones from the local parts house? Marine thermostats are different and designed to handle the cold lake water instead of the hot water from a radiator. Its frankly hard to believe that a thermostat would go bad, but I suppose it does happen on occasion.

[bentone]

like noworries has stated, if one of your accessories has burnt up and shorted out, it will draw all of your amperage out of your batteries thus not letting it turn over. Do your batteries still have a good charge?

[Surfdad]

It was definately a THUNK - scary sort of noise. There was some movement in the assembly. I had my son lie on the sunpad and watch. The belt moved maybe 1/2 inch and then when I let the key go, it rotated back. It seems unlikely to me that I could have bent a rod just with the torgue in the starter and the engine was running fine when I shut it down, albiet hotter than blue blazes.

The first therostat was just frozen - never opened up. I didn't see anything resembling impellor pieces. I got a direct replacement from the parts department of the dealer. On the last one though, the impellor went and I had that replaced along with the housing and the following week the thermostat was jammed closed with impellor bits. I don't know if all the impellor bits were removed after that - could be there was remenants.

Hey Bentone - yeah I charged the battery up and also used the truck to jump it. The sound it's making isn't that clicking sound of the solenoid jumping - it's a HUGE earth-shattering THUNK and nothing.

[noworries]

Definitely get the rest of the plugs out and then see if you get a jet of water out of one hole when you crank it. Just "bump" the starter though. The spark plug holes are pretty small.

R&R'ing cylinder heads is a good father-son bonding experience.

[TriValleyMarine]

Engine

Hey Surf Dad. Don't panic yet. We've seen this many times. I'm not convinced you did enough to crack the head or blow the head gasket. Did you get all the spark plugs out? You need to do that and try to crank the engine over. It should turn freely with the plugs out. You said the engine "back turned" when you shut it off, which is somewhat common in an over-heat. In that case, it can ingest water into the cylinders from the exhaust. It may be that simple. A high oil level reading does not indicate water in the oil; the oil would be milky if it had water in it. Also, some of the Merc brackets are not straight. It requires a shim kit to make the belt run straight. That could also be part of your problems. Call me if you need advice or assistance.

Dave
925-371-5456

[Surfdad]

Thanks Dave - 925 are you in Tracy or Discovery bay?

I haven't pulled all the plugs yet, I plan to finish that up this evening. I loosened the tensioner on the belt last night so that it's completely loose and that didn't help. I wasn't aware of the shim kit issue.

The oil on the dipstick looks fresh, none of the milkiness or froth. Looked like a normal dipstick, although the level was very high. Dave, wouldn't it require that the engine was running when the water got in there to create that milky apperance? Literally, as soon as I smelled the engine as "hot" I shut it down and it hasn't turned over since. When I did shut it down, it sounded fine it was idlling ok, and ran well before that.

I'm not sure this is possible, but it "feels" like water possibly seeped into the cylinder after I shut the engine off and IF there is Hydrolock, it happened subsequent to the over heating, but before I attempted to start it at the dock...it took about 1/2 an hour to flag down a passing boat, get a tow rope attached get the boat towed back to the dock. That's when I attempted to start it. I attempted to start it twice while still at the dock, I didn't check for the back turn at that point, nor do I remember the nasty THUNK noise at the dock...but it could have happened.

After trailering it home is when I noticed the THUNK and saw the back turn. That would have been maybe 2 hours later.