Kicker Amps on Wetsounds?

[Moki]

I have two 485s driven by an Eclipse XA4000 that delivers 350 watts RMS and 400 watts peak power. I have four XS-650 in the boat and a TC Sounds 12" subwoofer driven by an Eclipse XA5000 50 watts are going to the XS-650 and 300 watts are going to the TC Sounds sub.

Any recommendations on how my system should be set up?

I guess when your already a customer and a product advocate, you don't get a response?

[philwsailz]

I guess when your already a customer and a product advocate, you don't get a response?

huh?

BTW, you quoted yourself...

[Moki]

huh?

BTW, you quoted yourself...

Yeah, I asked Tim a question...no response

[philwsailz]

I have two 485s driven by an Eclipse XA4000 that delivers 350 watts RMS and 400 watts peak power. I have four XS-650 in the boat and a TC Sounds 12" subwoofer driven by an Eclipse XA5000 50 watts are going to the XS-650 and 300 watts are going to the TC Sounds sub.

Any recommendations on how my system should be set up?

In general, take advantage of all crossover function available on your amp(s).

For sub sections, turn the crossover to lo-pass and start with an initial setting of 80 Hz. If it is too boomy, lower the frequency. If not loud enough, try turning the crossover to a higher frequency. If the subwoofer amp section has a hi-pass filter turn it on to remove any frequencies too low for the sub to recreate. Use bass boost sparingly; it is just a power sponge.

For the boat speakers, set the crossover setting to hi-pass and set the crossover to a frequency range starting at 80 Hz. You might go as low as 60 or as high as 100, but somewhere in there you will find a balance.

Tower speakers shoudl always be set to hi-pass in my opinion, and the frequency is very dependent upon the type of speaker up there. Coaxes in cans may be set up with the hi-pass crossover as high as 150 Hz. The definitely will not go very loud full-range without the mid cones generrating a lot of distortion. Tim's stuff can handle lower frequencies, as the midbass driver Q's are higher, and the suspension is stiffer, preventing flatulant over-excursion. Plus they are designed to just plain handle more power.

There is no practical reason to run the full range section of a tower speaker setup in full range in my opinion; it takes a lot of cone area, a lot of enclosure volume, and a lot of amplitude to make real bass; all three things are typically missing from a tower speaker setup. Consider 50 Hz as a practical minimum for just about any tower speaker.

If by chance you have any sort of compression options, consider using them. Compression is not musical per se, but in all of my years in live sound reinforcement, I never toured a band without a good compressor in my front-of house rack, (not to be a name dropper unless necessary, but I have worked with acts you all know of, and know well). A compression ratio of 1.4 to 1 is hard to discern, and will do wonders for bringing quiet sounds up and allowing the system to "appear" as much as 3 dB more efficient. Compression is tricky though, as you need to re-gain the post to the same peak amplitude as the input signal, (blah blah blah, I know)...

[wetsounds1]

Phil,

True in theory but in real world applications and taking into account the way our ears work and “perception” of given frequencies, the results are different. Perception plays into effect as humans have a tendency to amplify higher frequencies. These higher frequencies “seem” louder to us. As two sounds leaving a speaker at the same level (intensity) but different frequencies such as high frequencies and low frequencies will not be perceived the same. So perception plays into account. Thus we will “hear” or perceive” the higher frequencies as louder. Not taking into account other factors like reflection, humidity, age etc…

Kscales,

We are re doing the install now, that is why I have not shown any pics as it has all been a temporary set up. We are getting it dialed in for some upcoming shows. I will upload pics when we get it finished.

I am not sure what you have in the boat now. What is in the boat now? As you only mentioned the pdx amps so I assumed you have all of those already. If the boat comes with the Kicker 5 ch amp. You would be fine leaving that in the boat on the inboat speakers and 10 inch subwoofer. And just using the pdx4.150 on the towers. If you have the pdx 4.100 on the towers now. And are happy with the output, then no worries. Listen to the system first and see how it works for you. As everyone has different objectives when it comes to their system.

As for the power wire. If you are sticking with the factory set up, the 8 ga is fine. If you are adding another amp. You will want to run separate power and ground as you do not want to have 2 amps running off a single 8 ga. You can also add another run of 8 ga to the same amp, thus giving you a 4 ga run if your amp needs the current. Proper current to the amplifier is key as they amp will be pulling current from the battery. Larger ga wire will handle more current. My system is quite different as I mentioned, I don’t do anything small so my entire system is 0 ga all the way into each amp using 0 to 4 ga adapters. It is overkill. But then again, this is our demo boat so it is a bit different. I also have 8 batteries in the boat, onboard chargers/power supplies and a 150 amp alternator on the way. So don’t look at how mine is because it is overkill. But I have around 7000 watts in the boat and it is designed to be able to play for long periods of time. So I have a lot of juice.

As for RCA’s. There are many different opinions on the quality of sound with any given wire. That is why you see rca’s that cost thousands of dollars and speaker wire that is $10 a foot. I will not get into that whole discussion. But I will say as long as you are using decent wire which the factory is. And you do not have any noise like engine noise. You will be fine with the RCA’s. If you have the funds to spend on higher quality ones, you can.

The head unit is not running any speakers on the factory set up. All the inboat speakers and 10 inch sub are being run off the 5 ch amp.

Let me see if I can explain ohms and impedance and series and parallel easily. The impedance of a speaker is designated as ohms. Ohms is a unit of measure. Amplifiers are designed to operate into some sort of a load. For instance one amplifier will produce 50 watts at 4 ohms. Meaning it will send 50 watts to a single 4 ohm speaker. Most car audio amps today will double the output power when the load is dropped if the amp can handle it. The same amplifier will produce 100 watts at a 2 ohm load. So if you hook up two 4 ohm speakers and wire them in parallel, you will decrease the impedance in half to a 2 ohm load. With both positives on the positive side of the amp and both negatives on the negative side of the amp. The amp will produce 100 watts at 2 ohms, in theory giving each speaker 50 watts. Series wiring is connecting the positive wire from the amp to the positive of speaker 1, then take the negative from speaker 1 and connect it to the positive of speaker 2. You then connect the negative of speaker 2 to the negative of the amplifier. This will increase or double the impedance. For two 4 ohm speakers, you will now be at an 8 ohm load on the amplifier. Then there is the combination of series and parallel. But I won’t get into that! In these applications, you will find that most of the time, you will be dealing with parallel wiring.

If you have a subwoofer that is a dual 2 ohm and you have an amp that cannot operate into a low impedance load. You can run that woofer in series making it a 4 ohm woofer and matching it to the amplifier. If you have an amp that can handle the low impedance load, you can run that same woofer in parallel making it a 1 ohm woofer and matching it to the amp. For instance, if you have a 2 ch class ab amp, most do not like to be bridged at anything lower than 4 ohms mono. So if you already have one of those, you can still use that amp on the dual 2 ohm woofer by the way you wire it. Now if you have a class d mono block amp that can play at 1 ohm, you can use that same woofer with that amp at 1 ohms and get a lot of power from that amp as the amp will increase the power output at the lower impedance.

Sorry if that is confusing but I tried to simplify it.

The subs do not have a built in crossover. Was referring to the tower speakers. For the subwoofer, you use the active low pass crossover built into the amp.

Sorry, Moki. Was busy typing this book here!

I think you set up is great. The towers have good power and your sub does too. The xs650’s work great with the power you have, although that can handle a solid 100 watts if you decide to up the power to them. But you are probably rocking so hard on the towers anyway, I would not worry about it. Unless you just want a winter project!

Tim
Wet Sounds

[Moki]

Thank you Phil!
Great customer service when I'm not even a customer...that bodes well for you and your company.

Is the compression done at the head unit? Based on your post, there are definitely some areas where I can tweak my system and turn down the boost on my bass. I will go and check where my cross overs are at and try them at different levels.

[philwsailz]

Phil,

True in theory but in real world applications and taking into account the way our ears work and “perception” of given frequencies, the results are different. Perception plays into effect as humans have a tendency to amplify higher frequencies. These higher frequencies “seem” louder to us. As two sounds leaving a speaker at the same level (intensity) but different frequencies such as high frequencies and low frequencies will not be perceived the same. So perception plays into account. Thus we will “hear” or perceive” the higher frequencies as louder. Not taking into account other factors like reflection, humidity, age etc…

Tim
Wet Sounds

I agree with perception of loudness, as documented by Fletcher and Munson for Ma Bell back in the day, (despite being a hasty report generated rather quickly with the assistance fo a sercetary in an uncontrolled test as I recall).

No argument on perception at all. I just thought you suggested that low frequencies were slower, which ain't right! Maybe I misunderstood...

Sorry!!!

Great explanation above dude on series vs. parallel, and I too will not tackle the snake oil associated with differing wires which somehow get stratified by cost...

How is everything else?

[philwsailz]

Thank you Phil!
Great customer service when I'm not even a customer...that bodes well for you and your company.

Is the compression done at the head unit? Based on your post, there are definitely some areas where I can tweak my system and turn down the boost on my bass. I will go and check where my cross overs are at and try them at different levels.

Compression is best done at the H/U or at least the pre-amp stage of the amplifer. It is really best placed in front of the H/U volume control, but I know of none in head units at the moment. Unfortunately I know very few amps have it either; the concept is tough enough to grasp that it is not found hardly at all. The Kicker SX amps have it, with limited control, but those are the only ones I know of at the moment.
If one were seriously considering using compressor, I Would try a pro-sound or semi pro-sound compressor with a wall-wart power supply with 12-volt output, and then another volume control or controls after it so that the head unit volume can be set as basically a line driver, and then the volume control(s) after the compressor used to turn the system or zones up and down.

[chpthril]

flatulant over-excursion

I get that when I eat Mexican

You guys are great learn something new every day

[wetsounds1]

Rockin and Rollin, tryin to get ready for CES! How about you? We are right next to ya'll this year. So please pass on the word to not shut us down! We are going to try to do demo's on the half hour as last year we got so many complaints as the sound was filling the entire show

[Moki]

Sorry, Moki. Was busy typing this book here!

I think you set up is great. The towers have good power and your sub does too. The xs650’s work great with the power you have, although that can handle a solid 100 watts if you decide to up the power to them. But you are probably rocking so hard on the towers anyway, I would not worry about it. Unless you just want a winter project!

Tim
Wet Sounds

Thanks for the response. What I was really looking for is advice on how to tune my current setup regarding the cross overs, settings, etc specific to the 485s and XS 650 (i.e. do I run the 485s in full range and high pass the xs 650s.) Unless, you want to add anything else, I'll go with Phils' recommendation.

[philwsailz]

Rockin and Rollin, tryin to get ready for CES! How about you? We are right next to ya'll this year. So please pass on the word to not shut us down! We are going to try to do demo's on the half hour as last year we got so many complaints as the sound was filling the entire show

Yeah right.... JUST KIDDING!!!!!

At the moment, I am not sure if I am going or not, so you will probably not hear me complaining...



Now I know you are there, I might show up so I can complain!


Other than that, I am jsut working on normal things, trying to get through another day, and spending too much on glasses. I was told I needed trifocals today. We are getting old, aren't we?

[philwsailz]

I get that when I eat Mexican

You guys are great learn something new every day

pffffftt!!!!

(excuse me, it must be the tilapia...)

[philwsailz]

Some books today, huh?

[wetsounds1]

Oh sorry, yeah Phil's points are right on. I would start there for settings. 80 HZ on the 485 and see where that gets you and then try to take them down to 60 HZ and see how you like it but I agree that would be the lowest you want to do. same goes for the in boats. The XS650 can play a ton of mid bass, more than a typical 6.5 inch speaker as I designed them to have a bit more punch. So you could try the same on those and see.

Tim