ATX

[UNSTUCK]

I think you are missing the point. Customer "A" may need X motor based on how we think you use your boat. Customer 'B' based on our conversation of wants and needs may need something else.

You have an opinion that this whole thing is linear It isnt. Neither are the opinions of the sales guys that you have spoken too. We all have different takes based on our experiences. Its actually healthy. Ryan who you spoke too has more hours in boats then you can count. May appear to be new, but trust me when I tell you he isnt.

You ask how is one supposed to truly know? Pretty simple, you go run it. You said it yourself, this isnt like buying a car, I totally agree with that synopsis, especially at altitude. You may not be able to pick a boat options wise and go run it but you can surely pick a boat Motor Wise and go run it which is the main point here isnt it? Thats exactly how this works. Its not a reliance of just our word. Customers have a ton of info going through their heads, we do our best to try and take the data given and atleast give some educated suggestions. Again, those arent linear. The problem is the data given isnt always correct. Ill give you an example. I hear "I only go out with 3-4 people usually" as a standard line. I follow up and ask "ok, so 3-4 usually, and thats normal? and do you wakeboard or just surf? They reply, "Nope just surf, never will wakeboard". Two months later I get a call... "Hey Jason we are trying to figure out why our boat wont get to speed. We have 13 people in the boat, all ballast full, have 1k lbs of lead and are trying to get to 22MPH. Kind of a tangent but im sure you get where I am going.

Our job isnt to tell you exactly what boat your supposed to buy, its to give you our experiences and try and atleast give you educated avenues to choose based on your budget and needs. Nothing more nothing less.

Sorry you had some inconsiderate people standing in the boat. Like others have said sometimes thats just the nature of the beast with a big event like that that isnt private. Go grab the boat with Adam and go run it without others to bug you.

I appreciate everything you're saying.
I do think salesmen need to be more careful about throwing our their options and making them sound like facts. We count on their advise and sometimes just have to have blind faith in them. I also expect the buyer to be educated and understand the nature of boating, higher elevation issues, loading issues, ect. It took me two boats to really learn that stuff.

I'd love to test an ATX with all three motors. That would be awesome. Three boats, same lake, same conditions, same day. Bet there's not a dealer anywhere that could arrange that.

So are you implying that a dealer can order a boat with a 360-440 and that its the same money regardless but that we then lie to the customer and profit on engines that cost us the same across the board?

I can tell you with my good name on the line that this info is incorrect. We dont profit at all on the engine upgrade. The MFG might, but the end dealer does not. We are going to make X which is usually linear regardless of what motor you get. If this were the case I would push an upgrade all the time. To us, it makes no differences what motor you choose and affects margins 0. Its really about getting what you want.

I'm not really implying anything. Just passing on what was told me to. The consumer will never know either way. Logic says it doesn't cost more for a tune. Heck, it probably just got copied from a public file on HPtuners! I kid...maybe. I understand the increased risk Indmar is taking by increasing the HP. If anything, telling us that should just shy us away from these ford motors. Take the last two SC motors. The GM LSA was a completely new motor designed around boost. All the internals were changed out to handle the HP. It's a great motor in cars or boats. The SC raptor, I'm told, has no changes to it. They took a base ford motor and bolted on a charger. Nothing was changed internally. So either it was built "tuff" to begin with, or it's on borrowed time. If you're purchasing an extra warranty when you go 400 or up, my guess they acknowledge the borrowed time.

But speaking of all these engines, can you explain why the 360 even exists in the Tige/ATX lines? Indmar doesn't even acknowledge it in their line of engines and I don't believe anyone else runs it.

[Bamer]

Dont think anyone cares, and we tell people all the time when they ask the differences. A stock duramax has x HP. For those that know Diesel performance its easy to get EFI live and or EZlynk for the ford guys and dial in 200 extra HP with the flip of a switch. If GM wanted they could offer 3 different engine torque combos. Same motor just different tuning. Whats happening here is no different. The cost is to account for the issues that could arise from the motor being hotter in the HP department. This same scenario is what we would see in the diesel sector if it were an option.

I know a ton of guy who have gone out, dialed in 150HP, stood on them and have either had catastrophic engine or transmissions problems.

This is all about risk management. Indmar isnt stupid. They dont want to lose money when its all said and done.

Makes sense, Nothing is free....when you are putting out more power with the same hardware, something has to give in the trade spaces.......most likely more fuel consumption and reduced lifetime of the hardware.


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[Bamer]

But speaking of all these engines, can you explain why the 360 even exists in the Tige/ATX lines? Indmar doesn't even acknowledge it in their line of engines and I don't believe anyone else runs it.

I was told by a couple different sources that the 360 and 400 are the same motor with different tune and fewer sensors and no water strainer. 360 is a way Tige got Indmar to drop a couple thousand bucks off to lower the cost of the entry level boats.


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[Germaine Marine]

I appreciate everything you're saying.
I do think salesmen need to be more careful about throwing our their options and making them sound like facts. We count on their advise and sometimes just have to have blind faith in them. I also expect the buyer to be educated and understand the nature of boating, higher elevation issues, loading issues, ect. It took me two boats to really learn that stuff.

I'd love to test an ATX with all three motors. That would be awesome. Three boats, same lake, same conditions, same day. Bet there's not a dealer anywhere that could arrange that.



I'm not really implying anything. Just passing on what was told me to. The consumer will never know either way. Logic says it doesn't cost more for a tune. Heck, it probably just got copied from a public file on HPtuners! I kid...maybe. I understand the increased risk Indmar is taking by increasing the HP. If anything, telling us that should just shy us away from these ford motors. Take the last two SC motors. The GM LSA was a completely new motor designed around boost. All the internals were changed out to handle the HP. It's a great motor in cars or boats. The SC raptor, I'm told, has no changes to it. They took a base ford motor and bolted on a charger. Nothing was changed internally. So either it was built "tuff" to begin with, or it's on borrowed time. If you're purchasing an extra warranty when you go 400 or up, my guess they acknowledge the borrowed time.

But speaking of all these engines, can you explain why the 360 even exists in the Tige/ATX lines? Indmar doesn't even acknowledge it in their line of engines and I don't believe anyone else runs it.

If you are spending 50-hell even 40k dollars you should never go on blind faith. No one uses the boat the exact same way you do. Perspective is unique to everyone. Do not have blind faith in anyone unless you know they are an absolute expert and even then.... just dont do it.

When more ATX's come in that could easily be arranged. IF you were down the buying path and it was a matter of just choosing the motor. Are we going to go joy ride someone who just wants to know? no. Someone who is all in, signed and done and just needs to make a motor decision. Absolutely.

I am going to start this off first by saying the following...

I in no way represent Tige or Indmar nor do I have inside knowledge of the workings of either of the two companies mentioned. What I will say is purely my sole opinion.

I do have my own experiences etc. Based on the 360 motor... I can tell you that it has fewer sensors then the other and does not have a strainer. I can also tell you that it does not have any kind of RAPTOR branding what so ever, anywhere at any place especially not on that pretty cowling. Ill let you make your own assumptions based on that. IMO... stick an R23 with a 360 and a 400 and you would be hard pressed to notice any difference in top speed or ability to carry a load.

What you are asking I think is why is the 360 paired with a 1.5-1 in a big boat like the ATX. My answer? Cost and versatility. Yes most people surf but some dont. I get a ton of people who come in and say they own a four winds or tahoe and want to get into the ski boat market. Not all of them want to load a boat super heavy and surf. Heck, some just want to be able to wake boar but some want a tall boat to do those things. This takes us back to your earlier question when you asked why a surf system is an option. The reason? Believe it or not, in an entry boat like the ATX some dont want it. All of these things are options for the consumer. Everyone clamored for a budged boat with option, Tige gives that and its then "Why is this and that an option, why is the small motor an option. Again, its versatility.

If someone were to buy an ATX, base on base with the 360 and no Go Surf. Decided they loved it and started creeping up on the limits of what they orginally bought the boat to do then theoretically we could swap a 2-1 and add Go Surf. Would it cost more then adding GS and a 2-1 initially? yes. But Dooable.

Perspective is a unique thing. Its as unique as looking into the mirror and wrapping your head around the fact that what you see is not what anyone else sees ever.

[Germaine Marine]

I was told by a couple different sources that the 360 and 400 are the same motor with different tune and fewer sensors and no water strainer. 360 is a way Tige got Indmar to drop a couple thousand bucks off to lower the cost of the entry level boats.


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Based on my time in one and I would imagine Indmar would dispute this... That tune while different would shock me if it were one that was producing less HP or TQ. An educated guess would be that its only difference tune wise is that its running less sensors. Less 0'2s etc which mean the motor probably isnt as efficient in some unique situations. I would be curious what HP its making on the top end though given it doesent have the same sensors dialing it back etc at times.

I have taken a 360 and 400 same prop, ran them heavy and then ran them empty for top speed. What I saw changed the way I ordered R series boats. I guess this also answers an earlier question. If the motors cost the end dealer the same then ordering anything but the 400 and up would make 0 logical sense. We would only order upgraded motors and then give them away at the end of the year given it didnt cost us anything on the front end. That alone should tell you the answer.

The only one making money on motors and knows the internal pricing differences would be Indmar.

[Germaine Marine]

Makes sense, Nothing is free....when you are putting out more power with the same hardware, something has to give in the trade spaces.......most likely more fuel consumption and reduced lifetime of the hardware.


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You got it compadre.

[UNSTUCK]

So just to be clear, you are saying there is no performance reasons a buyer would pick a 400 over the 360, assuming the rest of the drive train was the same? If that's the case, then the next question is can joe shmoe get a 360 with a 2:1 transmission and 17" wheel? What is the upgrade cost of doing that? I know the upgrade cost of going 400, 2:1, 17" prop. It's not too significant. The 440 jump is huge though. If I could do that and have it get my build price down $8-9k that would help.

As far as what you loose out on, on the 360, you're saying a sea strainer and maybe some sensors? A sea strainer is $100 and I can only think of two sensors that really aren't needed to run a modern engine. The two after cat O2s. You can tune out others like knock sensors, but that would be detrimental to Indmar, assuming the 360 still has a 5 year warranty. Maybe it doesn't. If you got rid of the two after cat O2s, you wouldn't need to run the cat converters either, but I don't think that's the direction engine builders are going these days. Removing the cats would bring the engine price down for sure though.

Did you ever confirm what drive train is in the boat in Utah?

[Germaine Marine]

So just to be clear, you are saying there is no performance reasons a buyer would pick a 400 over the 360, assuming the rest of the drive train was the same? If that's the case, then the next question is can joe shmoe get a 360 with a 2:1 transmission and 17" wheel? What is the upgrade cost of doing that? I know the upgrade cost of going 400, 2:1, 17" prop. It's not too significant. The 440 jump is huge though. If I could do that and have it get my build price down $8-9k that would help.

As far as what you loose out on, on the 360, you're saying a sea strainer and maybe some sensors? A sea strainer is $100 and I can only think of two sensors that really aren't needed to run a modern engine. The two after cat O2s. You can tune out others like knock sensors, but that would be detrimental to Indmar, assuming the 360 still has a 5 year warranty. Maybe it doesn't. If you got rid of the two after cat O2s, you wouldn't need to run the cat converters either, but I don't think that's the direction engine builders are going these days. Removing the cats would bring the engine price down for sure though.

Did you ever confirm what drive train is in the boat in Utah?

From what I have experienced no. If all other things are equal I wouldnt have any issue running the 360 over the 400. Indmar has data that I am sure would prove me wrong. I can tell you that I just dont see or feel a difference. If their is one its not enough to warrant any increase of cost IMO.

We have 2 boats that were ordered. One was supposed to be a test rig with the 2-1 and the 360, Ill check. Mine here has the 400 so I would imagine that one is the 360 but It could also be the 400. Ryan was told the 360 was headed his way so I would imagine thats where some of this confusion started. Tige has sent us boats with alternate options before. This could be one of those times.

[Zackdogg]

Got a chance to crawl around an ATX this AM, as my boat is in the shop, due to POS Indmar manufacturing, or maybe it’s Tige’s design, yet again.. should do a count, but I’ve had to drive it 2 hours each way, to my dealer, at least 8, maybe 10 times over that last 2 seasons, yet again I’m pretty disappointed in a boat that Tige slapped a $155k price tag on, when it was new.

Either way, unless the performance was so incredible, that I’d have to overlook the entry level feel of this boat, and that isn’t a knock on it, it’s taking its place in the market and hopefully they sell a million of them. But I couldn’t walk away from an RZX, even one I spend all the weekends I miss over the summer, hating because it’s such a buggy POS, to step that far back in quality. I see way more Axis’ around, than I do Tige’s so I’m sure that’s a much stronger segment of the market than the RZX owner, and if I hadn’t had my current boat before this one, I may have felt differently.

I’d still like to go out on one, and ride behind it. Maybe it feels different, if it’s a killer on the water.


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[Bamer]

Got a chance to crawl around an ATX this AM, as my boat is in the shop, due to POS Indmar manufacturing, or maybe it’s Tige’s design, yet again.. should do a count, but I’ve had to drive it 2 hours each way, to my dealer, at least 8, maybe 10 times over that last 2 seasons, yet again I’m pretty disappointed in a boat that Tige slapped a $155k price tag on, when it was new.

Either way, unless the performance was so incredible, that I’d have to overlook the entry level feel of this boat, and that isn’t a knock on it, it’s taking its place in the market and hopefully they sell a million of them. But I couldn’t walk away from an RZX, even one I spend all the weekends I miss over the summer, hating because it’s such a buggy POS, to step that far back in quality. I see way more Axis’ around, than I do Tige’s so I’m sure that’s a much stronger segment of the market than the RZX owner, and if I hadn’t had my current boat before this one, I may have felt differently.

I’d still like to go out on one, and ride behind it. Maybe it feels different, if it’s a killer on the water.


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Are all 8-10 trips related to the same issue?


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[Zackdogg]

Are all 8-10 trips related to the same issue?


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Not all.. generally the same issue several times though.. and that isn’t counting stuff that I’ve had them send me parts to fix myself..


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[Germaine Marine]

Got a chance to crawl around an ATX this AM, as my boat is in the shop, due to POS Indmar manufacturing, or maybe it’s Tige’s design, yet again.. should do a count, but I’ve had to drive it 2 hours each way, to my dealer, at least 8, maybe 10 times over that last 2 seasons, yet again I’m pretty disappointed in a boat that Tige slapped a $155k price tag on, when it was new.

Either way, unless the performance was so incredible, that I’d have to overlook the entry level feel of this boat, and that isn’t a knock on it, it’s taking its place in the market and hopefully they sell a million of them. But I couldn’t walk away from an RZX, even one I spend all the weekends I miss over the summer, hating because it’s such a buggy POS, to step that far back in quality. I see way more Axis’ around, than I do Tige’s so I’m sure that’s a much stronger segment of the market than the RZX owner, and if I hadn’t had my current boat before this one, I may have felt differently.

I’d still like to go out on one, and ride behind it. Maybe it feels different, if it’s a killer on the water.


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You had kobe beef in terms of boat bells and whistles. Now you see a boat that is 50k+ less and you are disappointed. I get it, im just curious as to what you were expecting. What if it ran as good if not better in terms of performance as an Rzx? You do know thats why it was built right? Cut the fat off and give people a dead nuts performer without all the frills. Seats, screen, weight and surf system. It checks all those boxes and then looks over at moomba and smiles as it blows by in terms of gingerbread.

Is it an RZX? No, but its not even remotely priced like one either.

[Zackdogg]

You had kobe beef in terms of boat bells and whistles. Now you see a boat that is 50k+ less and you are disappointed. I get it, im just curious as to what you were expecting. What if it ran as good if not better in terms of performance as an Rzx? You do know thats why it was built right? Cut the fat off and give people a dead nuts performer without all the frills. Seats, screen, weight and surf system. It checks all those boxes and then looks over at moomba and smiles as it blows by in terms of gingerbread.

Is it an RZX? No, but its not even remotely priced like one either.

The quote I got from a Tige dealer, off the ATX website was $15k less than the $155k, sticker price of my RZX, wasn’t remotely close to $50k less. And if it outperforms my “flagship” boat, which costs more, whether it’s $15k more, or $50k more, what does that say about their “flagship”? It would only make me think even less about a boat that I think pretty little of, right about now, which would be pretty damn hard, after breaking down for the third time this summer, on the water, and losing the boat for 5 weekends due to breakdown. That’s somewhere around 13 days that have been cut short, or missed, because of some Indmar $hit design. Guess that’s what I get for deciding to go against my gut with a Ford powerplant.


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[Germaine Marine]

The quote I got from a Tige dealer, off the ATX website was $15k less than the $155k, sticker price of my RZX, wasn’t remotely close to $50k less. And if it outperforms my “flagship” boat, which costs more, whether it’s $15k more, or $50k more, what does that say about their “flagship”? It would only make me think even less about a boat that I think pretty little of, right about now, which would be pretty damn hard, after breaking down for the third time this summer, on the water, and losing the boat for 5 weekends due to breakdown. That’s somewhere around 13 days that have been cut short, or missed, because of some Indmar $hit design. Guess that’s what I get for deciding to go against my gut with a Ford powerplant.


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Lets clear a few things up here.

First things first lets compare year for year. Your boat is 4 years old. Comparing your 16 to a 2020 is going to get too confusing given inflation and boat costs going up each calendar year and tech being way different in that span.

I dont know how your dealer is handling quotes given we are bombarded with interest but unless people are serious we are quoting MSRP. I dont know how much you have looked around in the last few years but boat prices are up. I just built two boats identically optioned as best I can given the Rzx has more standard features. The difference in MSRP vs MSRP? You guessed it, right at 50K. Meaning, you shop an ATX vs an RZX, in most cases the price difference is going to be somewhere in that 42-50K gap range option for option motor for motor. If you are buying an ATX at msrp its going to be 145K, and if you buy an RZX at MSRP its going to be 195K loaded vs loaded on the 460.


This whole "flagship" terms gets tossed around way too much. What does that mean exactly? Tiges best boat? To who? Everyone values different things. The Rzx was designed in 2016 off the ASR. The running surface hasnt changed since it was born 4 years ago. Since then 6 new running surfaces have been designed and tested and things learned in the process. Here is my question. Is it reasonable to expect that Tige in the last 4 years has not evolved in terms of running surfaces? If new models (Zx, RZX20 etc) have all been new designs that have gotten better with each attempt what would make you think that they would go backwards with the ATX? Are you saying that they would intentionally do that so as to keep the Rzx a more premium model?

Not ever going to be the case. Rzx was the flagship, still is amazing but to think that these other models in terms of running surface, wave etc have not improved is a little naive.

Axis for the sake of this discussion has a limited option pool that consists of nearly 1/4 of the available options. But Ill use that as an example. A T22 prices out at 109K MSRP, If I build an ATX with those same options, boat for boat its right at 98K.

I get it, tough go this year with your RZX. Just want to make sure the right info and perspective is going out about the boats. It gets confusing at times.

Tige offers a stupid arrangement of options even with the ATX.

How good the ATX or any model that has come after it isnt a slight on your boat, its a sign of growth and a healthy evolution from Tige.

I for one love that they want to put out a more budget friendly option that can throw down against any of its models. To me its a bold statement. They wont be going backwards in terms of performance for the sake of money. This is a good thing not a bad one.

[sandm]

I always like to put the supra/moomba into perspective and tige/atx will be similar I think when you compare chevy/gmc and the silverado/denali. they are identical under the skin. same engine, same rear end, same basic suspension and some differences in tranny's but similar. performance will be almost identical in towing/track but cosmetically and options-wise they are night and day. my 1500 is a lot more "plain" than my buddy's denali. I drool over his interior and all the bells he has but when i send my payment vs his, I'll take my silverado all day. for me the bling isn't worth it. for him, it was. yes, I do know supra/moomba are different hulls and assume tige/atx are as well but concept is the same as the car world. similar performance out of 2 lines with the difference being options/bling. heck, it's even in the sports car world when you look at the audi r8v10 and lambo hurrican. same engines, different looks/interiors/tuning. and 100k in pricing.

I hope the atx24 performs as well as the rzx5. that's a win for tige/atx. budget friendly for those that want it and bling for those that want it but superior wake in either case.

I've seen zack's issues on here and I have a lot of empathy toward losing a lot of time/days on the water/money and it has to be beyond frustrating.