ATX

[UNSTUCK]

I tried to buy a tune for my old F24. They would not sell me one. I even went the route of telling them I fried my ECM during a bad jump start. They wanted my engine SN and said I would have to send in my ECM before getting a new one out side of warranty. I called every marine engine builder/tuner on google. No one has tuning software for the E-Controls ECM that Indmar uses. Had it been any one of the MEFI versions it would be easy. I was very close to slapping on a blower and cam and rewiring my engine harness to work with a GM ECM with OBD II, making my boat think it was a camaro. Then we ran across our RZX and went that way instead.

From a semi disgruntled Moomba salesman (so take this however you want: ie hearsay) Indmar does the different tune HP/TQ numbers soley to benefit the dealers. It doesn't cost Indmar any more money to make the 360, 400, 440 or the bigger ones up to, but not including the blower. A few different parts, but really the same over all. Nothing added or removed. Any real cost difference is negligible and it gets absorbed. This gives the dealer all the profit they want to make on the sale of an engine upgrade. This makes sense to me though when I compare the cost of a 440 upgrade from the different manufactures. The difference is often not hundreds, but thousands.

[Bamer]

I tried to buy a tune for my old F24. They would not sell me one. I even went the route of telling them I fried my ECM during a bad jump start. They wanted my engine SN and said I would have to send in my ECM before getting a new one out side of warranty. I called every marine engine builder/tuner on google. No one has tuning software for the E-Controls ECM that Indmar uses. Had it been any one of the MEFI versions it would be easy. I was very close to slapping on a blower and cam and rewiring my engine harness to work with a GM ECM with OBD II, making my boat think it was a camaro. Then we ran across our RZX and went that way instead.

From a semi disgruntled Moomba salesman (so take this however you want: ie hearsay) Indmar does the different tune HP/TQ numbers soley to benefit the dealers. It doesn't cost Indmar any more money to make the 360, 400, 440 or the bigger ones up to, but not including the blower. A few different parts, but really the same over all. Nothing added or removed. Any real cost difference is negligible and it gets absorbed. This gives the dealer all the profit they want to make on the sale of an engine upgrade. This makes sense to me though when I compare the cost of a 440 upgrade from the different manufactures. The difference is often not hundreds, but thousands.

Agreed! Lots of margin in engine upgrades.

I’m sure Tige and Indmar gets some coin from the upgrades too.

Does anyone have an idea of how much performance variation a particular model might be from engine to engine? Plus or minus 5%? So a lower performing 440 is putting out 420ftlbs and a higher performing 400 is putting out 420ftlbs too?

Hmmmm?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zackdogg]

I tried to buy a tune for my old F24. They would not sell me one. I even went the route of telling them I fried my ECM during a bad jump start. They wanted my engine SN and said I would have to send in my ECM before getting a new one out side of warranty. I called every marine engine builder/tuner on google. No one has tuning software for the E-Controls ECM that Indmar uses. Had it been any one of the MEFI versions it would be easy. I was very close to slapping on a blower and cam and rewiring my engine harness to work with a GM ECM with OBD II, making my boat think it was a camaro. Then we ran across our RZX and went that way instead.

From a semi disgruntled Moomba salesman (so take this however you want: ie hearsay) Indmar does the different tune HP/TQ numbers soley to benefit the dealers. It doesn't cost Indmar any more money to make the 360, 400, 440 or the bigger ones up to, but not including the blower. A few different parts, but really the same over all. Nothing added or removed. Any real cost difference is negligible and it gets absorbed. This gives the dealer all the profit they want to make on the sale of an engine upgrade. This makes sense to me though when I compare the cost of a 440 upgrade from the different manufactures. The difference is often not hundreds, but thousands.

That makes plenty of sense to me.. you’re talking whatever $4-6k, or something for those tunes, which cost them nothing, beyond the R&D, and programming side of it. I’ve heard from guys I absolutely trust what they tell me, that even them getting tunes from Indmar is super close to impossible. It’s genius on their part, but damn, it sucks from the consumer side!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[sandm]

if there were enough of these boats out there and a market for tunes, someone would crack that ecu and we'd be money BUT it's just too small of a market for someone to figure out how to crack indmar's coding.

all one would have to do is figure out their coding, download the maps off the upgraded engine and lay them over the current 400 mapping. I can't imagine it's more than a few fuel/timing tables.

[UNSTUCK]

Does anyone have an idea of how much performance variation a particular model might be from engine to engine? Plus or minus 5%? So a lower performing 440 is putting out 420ftlbs and a higher performing 400 is putting out 420ftlbs too?

I think this is a great point to bring up as well. If you're not using the right octane rating you could be loosing A LOT of performance. I'll have to go back and look, but I think there are three different stickers on my boat that say I must use 87, 89, and 91/93 octane. So which one is it? I fill up at gas stations every time so I have the option. Lake boats may not. The pumps I've used at mead and powell only offer 87 if I remember right. Maybe 89. Using higher octane than your tune/engine calls for wont improve performance, unless you have a mechanical issue, it might help. But using a lower rating will kill your performance under load.

if there were enough of these boats out there and a market for tunes, someone would crack that ecu and we'd be money BUT it's just too small of a market for someone to figure out how to crack indmar's coding.

all one would have to do is figure out their coding, download the maps off the upgraded engine and lay them over the current 400 mapping. I can't imagine it's more than a few fuel/timing tables.

There's plenty of Indmar engines out there using E-Controls. I just think no one has decided to jump into that market. Imagine passing on a 440 upgrade for $5-10k knowing you can buy a tune for $800 in the aftermarket. I'm sure it would cost your warranty, if they found out, but that's no different than all of us running a tune on our trucks.
We need to remember that this is just a Ford or GM truck motor. Ford and GM wrote the fuel maps already. There's plenty of good working tunes out there for them. Just a matter of being able to talk to the ECM. Probably not that difficult for the guys that know what their doing.

[SONIC]

I think this is a great point to bring up as well. If you're not using the right octane rating you could be loosing A LOT of performance. I'll have to go back and look, but I think there are three different stickers on my boat that say I must use 87, 89, and 91/93 octane. So which one is it? I fill up at gas stations every time so I have the option. Lake boats may not. The pumps I've used at mead and powell only offer 87 if I remember right. Maybe 89. Using higher octane than your tune/engine calls for wont improve performance, unless you have a mechanical issue, it might help. But using a lower rating will kill your performance under load.



There's plenty of Indmar engines out there using E-Controls. I just think no one has decided to jump into that market. Imagine passing on a 440 upgrade for $5-10k knowing you can buy a tune for $800 in the aftermarket. I'm sure it would cost your warranty, if they found out, but that's no different than all of us running a tune on our trucks.
We need to remember that this is just a Ford or GM truck motor. Ford and GM wrote the fuel maps already. There's plenty of good working tunes out there for them. Just a matter of being able to talk to the ECM. Probably not that difficult for the guys that know what their doing.

So If I'm reading all this right, the difference in the 360, 400 and 440 engine options is just a tune?
If that's true it's some shitty dealings imo.

To jump up by 100HP on a NA motor I find it really hard to believe that it's a tuning change. On a turbo diesel sure, you can add 150hp easily, but on a NA fairly high spec motor you're looking at 10-20 hp from a tune in the car world.

[Zackdogg]

So If I'm reading all this right, the difference in the 360, 400 and 440 engine options is just a tune?
If that's true it's some shitty dealings imo.

To jump up by 100HP on a NA motor I find it really hard to believe that it's a tuning change. On a turbo diesel sure, you can add 150hp easily, but on a NA fairly high spec motor you're looking at 10-20 hp from a tune in the car world.

That’s exactly it. The tune is the only difference in those motors. 460 has some difference in parts, but I think that’s even minimal. I think basically you’re paying more to not have your motor de-tuned, which is what the 360 is, a de-tuned 440.

I’m sure 90% of consumers have no idea that’s the case, and I’m sure they would love to keep it that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[sandm]

sonic, I would suspect that the block is tuned to the ragged edge in the 460 as it calls for premium fuel for that variant. all others are simply de-tuned versions as zack calls out.
a quick look at that engine in the ford family and the raptor has 411hp/434tq while the superdutys have 385hp/405tq. similar to some of the boat differences.
it would not be hard for ford/indmar to take the hottest engine(460) and tune it down to the 360 and now offer tige and other brands a very wide engine lineup for profit margins. ecu can compensate for this by limiting timing/fuel all across the spectrum. .
think corvette with the valet mode or key.

don't know BUT I would bet that when a boat order has the 460 checked from the 400 or 360 as an upgrade part of the coin goes to dealer, part to tige and part to indmar.

[Germaine Marine]

I tuned out because I was already frustrated and because of other things I overheard and saw. Then he became the third salesman to offer his opinion on what engine Utah customers need to purchase. The problem is those three salesmen have offered up 3 different motors. So how is one supposed to know what they really need? It's not like a car dealership. We can't just go pick out the boat with the options we want/need off the lot and take it for a test drive. A lot of times we have to go off of what the salesman says when placing an order. Who wants to pay $9k extra for a motor they don't need, especially in a "value line" boat? Worse yet is purchasing a boat that is under powered. I've made that mistake once and don't want to do it again. What happens if this salesman sells a bunch of under powered ATX's here in Utah? Is that the customers fault for not knowing? Or the customers fault for taking the word of the salesman? Either way the customer will have a bad taste for ATX.

I think you are missing the point. Customer "A" may need X motor based on how we think you use your boat. Customer 'B' based on our conversation of wants and needs may need something else.

You have an opinion that this whole thing is linear It isnt. Neither are the opinions of the sales guys that you have spoken too. We all have different takes based on our experiences. Its actually healthy. Ryan who you spoke too has more hours in boats then you can count. May appear to be new, but trust me when I tell you he isnt.

You ask how is one supposed to truly know? Pretty simple, you go run it. You said it yourself, this isnt like buying a car, I totally agree with that synopsis, especially at altitude. You may not be able to pick a boat options wise and go run it but you can surely pick a boat Motor Wise and go run it which is the main point here isnt it? Thats exactly how this works. Its not a reliance of just our word. Customers have a ton of info going through their heads, we do our best to try and take the data given and atleast give some educated suggestions. Again, those arent linear. The problem is the data given isnt always correct. Ill give you an example. I hear "I only go out with 3-4 people usually" as a standard line. I follow up and ask "ok, so 3-4 usually, and thats normal? and do you wakeboard or just surf? They reply, "Nope just surf, never will wakeboard". Two months later I get a call... "Hey Jason we are trying to figure out why our boat wont get to speed. We have 13 people in the boat, all ballast full, have 1k lbs of lead and are trying to get to 22MPH. Kind of a tangent but im sure you get where I am going.

Our job isnt to tell you exactly what boat your supposed to buy, its to give you our experiences and try and atleast give you educated avenues to choose based on your budget and needs. Nothing more nothing less.

Sorry you had some inconsiderate people standing in the boat. Like others have said sometimes thats just the nature of the beast with a big event like that that isnt private. Go grab the boat with Adam and go run it without others to bug you.

[Germaine Marine]

I tried to buy a tune for my old F24. They would not sell me one. I even went the route of telling them I fried my ECM during a bad jump start. They wanted my engine SN and said I would have to send in my ECM before getting a new one out side of warranty. I called every marine engine builder/tuner on google. No one has tuning software for the E-Controls ECM that Indmar uses. Had it been any one of the MEFI versions it would be easy. I was very close to slapping on a blower and cam and rewiring my engine harness to work with a GM ECM with OBD II, making my boat think it was a camaro. Then we ran across our RZX and went that way instead.

From a semi disgruntled Moomba salesman (so take this however you want: ie hearsay) Indmar does the different tune HP/TQ numbers soley to benefit the dealers. It doesn't cost Indmar any more money to make the 360, 400, 440 or the bigger ones up to, but not including the blower. A few different parts, but really the same over all. Nothing added or removed. Any real cost difference is negligible and it gets absorbed. This gives the dealer all the profit they want to make on the sale of an engine upgrade. This makes sense to me though when I compare the cost of a 440 upgrade from the different manufactures. The difference is often not hundreds, but thousands.

So are you implying that a dealer can order a boat with a 360-440 and that its the same money regardless but that we then lie to the customer and profit on engines that cost us the same across the board?

I can tell you with my good name on the line that this info is incorrect. We dont profit at all on the engine upgrade. The MFG might, but the end dealer does not. We are going to make X which is usually linear regardless of what motor you get. If this were the case I would push an upgrade all the time. To us, it makes no differences what motor you choose and affects margins 0. Its really about getting what you want.

[Germaine Marine]

sonic, I would suspect that the block is tuned to the ragged edge in the 460 as it calls for premium fuel for that variant. all others are simply de-tuned versions as zack calls out.
a quick look at that engine in the ford family and the raptor has 411hp/434tq while the superdutys have 385hp/405tq. similar to some of the boat differences.
it would not be hard for ford/indmar to take the hottest engine(460) and tune it down to the 360 and now offer tige and other brands a very wide engine lineup for profit margins. ecu can compensate for this by limiting timing/fuel all across the spectrum. .
think corvette with the valet mode or key.

don't know BUT I would bet that when a boat order has the 460 checked from the 400 or 360 as an upgrade part of the coin goes to dealer, part to tige and part to indmar.

Nothing goes to the dealer in that sense. Dealers are going to need to make X per boat regardless of what engine you choose. We get charged for an upgrade the same as the customer would. The N.A engines arent all the same cost and we mark it and sell it.

The best way I can answer this is that the pricing will vary just like any other option pending what sheet you are looking at. MSRP etc. But I want to make sure that this much is clear. The N.A options (360-460) are not the same cost to order to the dealer. Just flat out incorrect info.

The 360-440 are separated with Tuning differences. Customers ask..."That 5k upgrade seems crazy" while I cant say I disagree, my ask is that you look outside the box. They are squeezing this engines performance wise with more fuel and air without hard component changes. As you ramp HP up you also creep up on that fine line of longevity. You may not think its fair but one would assume that Indmar knows that some failures on the tweaked motors are not a matter of if but when. You may not like the answer but IM sure that upgrade cost is to account for the failures that could happen with a motor thats a little hotter.

[Germaine Marine]

That’s exactly it. The tune is the only difference in those motors. 460 has some difference in parts, but I think that’s even minimal. I think basically you’re paying more to not have your motor de-tuned, which is what the 360 is, a de-tuned 440.

I’m sure 90% of consumers have no idea that’s the case, and I’m sure they would love to keep it that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Dont think anyone cares, and we tell people all the time when they ask the differences. A stock duramax has x HP. For those that know Diesel performance its easy to get EFI live and or EZlynk for the ford guys and dial in 200 extra HP with the flip of a switch. If GM wanted they could offer 3 different engine torque combos. Same motor just different tuning. Whats happening here is no different. The cost is to account for the issues that could arise from the motor being hotter in the HP department. This same scenario is what we would see in the diesel sector if it were an option.

I know a ton of guy who have gone out, dialed in 150HP, stood on them and have either had catastrophic engine or transmissions problems.

This is all about risk management. Indmar isnt stupid. They dont want to lose money when its all said and done.

[SONIC]

Very interesting.
That's a very clever setup from indmar, and germain is likely right the upgrade cost covers some of the warranty issues with a hopped up motor. But it's also a profit factory, because they wouldn't bother to sell it if it were a warranty claim generator.

[Zackdogg]

Dont think anyone cares, and we tell people all the time when they ask the differences. A stock duramax has x HP. For those that know Diesel performance its easy to get EFI live and or EZlynk for the ford guys and dial in 200 extra HP with the flip of a switch. If GM wanted they could offer 3 different engine torque combos. Same motor just different tuning. Whats happening here is no different. The cost is to account for the issues that could arise from the motor being hotter in the HP department. This same scenario is what we would see in the diesel sector if it were an option.

I know a ton of guy who have gone out, dialed in 150HP, stood on them and have either had catastrophic engine or transmissions problems.

This is all about risk management. Indmar isnt stupid. They dont want to lose money when its all said and done.

I 100% understand why Indmar does it. If owned a motor company, I would do the same thing, if I could get away with it, no question. As a consumer, ultimately it doesn’t really matter if I like it, or not. I’m not going to buy a boat with a carb, over the deal, and in my case, it really doesn’t matter. I have the biggest motor on that tune. If I had a 400, knew that tune was out there, and that I couldn’t get my hands on it, I would be a little bummed out. Indmar obviously isn’t stupid, they hold all the cards, and they want to keep it that way. They are a business and need to stay profitable, and the more they can protect their product, the better. I’m sure it isn’t any big secret, but I would guess if you asked the majority of boat owners, they would have no idea that they paid $6k for a tune. I put them in the same group as most harley guys. They have a boat, it floats, if they need something they take it to the dealer, and that’s that. Most guys that can afford $125k for a boat aren’t picking up tools and changing parts out. And that isn’t a knock on anyone around here, I think most guys on forums are trying to figure stuff out. Most boat owners I know have never even looked at a forum, and also aren’t wrenching on their boats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[sandm]

Nothing goes to the dealer in that sense. Dealers are going to need to make X per boat regardless of what engine you choose. We get charged for an upgrade the same as the customer would. The N.A engines arent all the same cost and we mark it and sell it.

The 360-440 are separated with Tuning differences. Customers ask..."That 5k upgrade seems crazy" while I cant say I disagree, my ask is that you look outside the box. They are squeezing this engines performance wise with more fuel and air without hard component changes. As you ramp HP up you also creep up on that fine line of longevity. You may not think its fair but one would assume that Indmar knows that some failures on the tweaked motors are not a matter of if but when. You may not like the answer but IM sure that upgrade cost is to account for the failures that could happen with a motor thats a little hotter.

totally agree with some of this. it does go to the dealer in the sense that the 440 upgrade cost, lets say, $6k. that's the price on the build sheet but I know that dealer cost from tige is, lets say $4.5k. so dealer is pocketing 1.5k. now tige takes the remaining 4.5k and bet it's split between them and Indmar. not 50/50 but they are paying an "upcharge" for installing the 440 vs the 400 so it's an additional 1.5k to indmar and tige pockets the other 3k. I can see it in the car world where you buy a chevy and are offered a 5.3 and the upcharge 6.2 is another 4k but it's an entirely different engine with other parts, tuning, wiring, etc. again it's probably not worth 4k but it does have a different cost.

I'd buy the tuning difference if it was truly a "hotter" motor but it's spec'ed similarly to the raptor truck which has thousands on the road and millions of testing miles so ford knows what that engine will do. It still has more left in it as tuners have proven that on the automotive side so although it's a bigger tune than the 400 it's not at the ragged edge. sonic is right in that no motor company is going to sell something that has potential to grenade on the water.

the disappointing thing to all this is you have a customer like me that buys a boat in las vegas and specs it with the 400. works fine at this elevation. I take a job at our Denver division and now the boat is an absolute slug. there's a solution that isn't spending 100k on a new whip and it's really just a software flash or an ecu and maybe an additional knock sensor but that won't happen. but my chevy that struggles going up the Denver passes, I can spend $300 on a diablo tuner and voila- 30tq more and happy tow rig. crazy....

all that said, I still wish you had a dealership here to check out an atx. it'll be next spring before I see one unless you bring one to the reunion