Super Ultra Low Emission Engine

[chpthril]

For rear of hijacking A thread. Here is what started this topic. Teak surfing deaths

Here is a link about SULEV .Although this is related to cars, boats are going through a similar reduction in emissions.
As boats do not have EGR valves, O2 sensors, and catalytic converters (yet) to further reduce these gasses, thier numbers will be higher.

These ultra low standards are about reducing overall emissions as releated to the environment. It's not about making it safe to 'suck on a tailpipe' or even 'teak surf'. Cars have had converters since the 70's and ECM controlled fuelinjection since the 80's but that does not make it safe to run one closed up in you garage.

[jklaus]

Its nice to know that indmar as of this year (2007) will be producing all of their engines with cats in the exhaust manifolds. So Supra, Mastercraft and Moomba all get these. I took a look at one and they are a nice seamless install with a nice set of chrome exhaust tips too. This should seriously help for CO emissions. I believe the name they are using is ETXcat or something similar.

I contacted Indmar and unfortunately they are not marketing or planning retrofitkits for their previous engines.

I think we should all petition major engine/boat manufacturers to start pressing for this. It is way overdue, it doesnt matter if you surf or just ride in the boat. I got a portable CO detector to keep an eye on levels and its surprising how high they can be...

Cheers, j

[chpthril]

I agree that emissions need to be addressed both for rider safety and the environment, but the extreme heat needed for a CAT to work (600 deg) can be dangerous . Normal operating temp of a CAT on car is around 1200 deg. that is enough to ignite gas fumes!!!!!!!!

I think this is why the EPA and USCG have not made them mandatory. Although they have approved them for use. I think that the other boat manufacturers have pleaded there case that the emissions can be lowered by other means without the added cost and heat/danger of converters.

[spharis]

My boat has an "Ultra Low Emissions" engine. Is there still a risk of CO poisoning?
The Ultra Low Emissions standards do NOT cover Carbon Monoxide. So far, we have only conducted a brief test of CO concentrations behind an Ultra Low Emissions rated boat and the CO concentrations appeared to be as high as any other inboard boat that we've tested. If you have an Ultra Low Emissions boat, do not be lulled into a false sense of security; your engine still produces lethal levels of CO.

[jklaus]

Yes, I think the USCG requirement is that all surfaces within/onboard recreation boats must be below 200oF. The cats are actually located within a waterjacket housing right on each manifold, so it uses two cats per engine. Exhaust temps are higher thus the stainless exhaust but within the op temp limits. I checked Merc's website and they too have a prototype, although they are likely to release theirs for the 08 season.

[jklaus]

Thanks spharis for pointing that out as many think that SULEV would include all noxious gases.

I'd be interested in seeing info that you gather, although I think that it would likely be the same for CO as there is no action directed towards so would only be an ancilliary related reduction.

What are your guy's thoughts on the FAE. I've done quite a bit of reading on the several USCG reports. It seems like a well engineered product, and the principals seem extremely reputable insofar as customer service and standing behind their product. I do wonder how effective the device is as the testing revealed inconclusive results, perhaps even spurious correlations which can make interpreting results difficult. I think I may give the product a go as it is likely better than nothing at all but dont want to rely on it quite so heavily? Your thoughts?

Cheers, j

[spharis]

That question is a quote from www.freshairexhaust.com so it could be slightly skewed. Even though CO is not a requirement to be tested for, it is obviously removed as test have shown.

I am in complete agreement that cats on a boat are not going to be ideal. The operating temp is too high, and the amount of water, especially if salt water, going through them is going to wear them out very quickly. I wouldn't want to change an $800 cat or two every other season. In a car, cats do not even begin to work until the exhaust is well above the temp allowed for marine parts. The reason manf. do not move them closer to the engine is due to the accelerated wear caused by heat. On cars, you will see cats are almost always passenger seat and farther back.

found a quote on howstuffworks.com

One simple solution to this problem is to move the catalytic converter closer to the engine. This means that hotter exhaust gases reach the converter and it heats up faster, but this may also reduce the life of the converter by exposing it to extremely high temperatures. Most carmakers position the converter under the front passenger seat, far enough from the engine to keep the temperature down to levels that will not harm it.

[chpthril]

My boat has an "Ultra Low Emissions" engine. Is there still a risk of CO poisoning?
The Ultra Low Emissions standards do NOT cover Carbon Monoxide. So far, we have only conducted a brief test of CO concentrations behind an Ultra Low Emissions rated boat and the CO concentrations appeared to be as high as any other inboard boat that we've tested. If you have an Ultra Low Emissions boat, do not be lulled into a false sense of security; your engine still produces lethal levels of CO.

Spharis, Is that report releated to marine engines or ULTRA LOW EMISSION ENGINES in general (can u point me to it as I would like to read it). I can not find much on marine engines, but every thing I have ever read about emissions includes all polluting VOC's (volatile organic compounds) such as HC, CO, NOX, and SO2.

I have not read all the reports on FAE, are these reading taken at the transom or 5 to 6 ft behind the boat where we surf?

Our engine sys are split into 2 groups: pre emission and post emissions.
pre emission componants includes anything that will prevent the harmfull emissions from forming, ECM, fuel injection, pcv valves, etc.
post emission componets such as catalytic converters and EGV valves, will take those pollutants formed during combustion and further the chemical reaction so if all goes well, the only thing leaving the tailpipe is H2O, O2, and CO2.

On a side note, the same number of HC and O2 atoms will exit the exhaust as entered. through cumbustion and heat they are rearranged to form other gases.

[dogbert]

If you're worried about fumes, get an FAE. As an added benefit, your stereo will sound soooo much better, too.

[spharis]

Spharis, Is that report releated to marine engines or ULTRA LOW EMISSION ENGINES in general (can u point me to it as I would like to read it). I can not find much on marine engines, but every thing I have ever read about emissions includes all polluting VOC's (volatile organic compounds) such as HC, CO, NOX, and SO2.

I have no idea.....that is a quote from the FAE website, so like I mentioned, I am sure it is skewed.