18 R23 surf setup changes...what happened?

[wired1236]

When talking to my dealer, he explained that the fact both top and bottom hinges now swivel makes the difference in that it puts 1/3 less pressure on the actuator which is why they were failing in the 1st place.

He also said they have had great luck in making the boats with the new setup work a ton better with stock weight but it does take adjustment from the old setup.

So IMO, this can change the position of the actuator.

Only trouble is that he’s 2-1/2 hrs away so we are going to hopefully work on it remotely and/ or he’s coming to me if we can’t get it. Great dealer service!


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[Germaine Marine]

So I am late to the party.. Its busy season so sorry for that.

Can you guys cliff notes me whats happening.

If I scanned through it correcty. Cnotes new boat surfed great, he didnt change a thing other then the remount and now stuff doesent work?

If that's the case then its only one of two things. Either that lower actuator mount is flipped which would lower the plate at full stow down into the water or you simultaneously lost both actuators which sounds crazy to me.

[Bamer]

18 R23 surf setup changes...what happened?

So I am late to the party.. Its busy season so sorry for that.

Can you guys cliff notes me whats happening.

If I scanned through it correcty. Cnotes new boat surfed great, he didnt change a thing other then the remount and now stuff doesent work?

If that's the case then its only one of two things. Either that lower actuator mount is flipped which would lower the plate at full stow down into the water or you simultaneously lost both actuators which sounds crazy to me.

My cliff notes:

I’m new to tige, and have a 2019 R23. First time on water to test surf wave and the wave was all washed out all the time no matter the setting. 2nd time in water, I was joined by my dealer and was not able to produce any kind of surfwave period no matter settings or balllast. Got back to dealership and the more experienced sales guy(a guy that actually surfs) pointed out that the top brackets were rotated 180 causing the unused surf plate to engage the water causing the washout. Fixed bracket and went back to lake and was able to make a clean wave but we didn’t optimize ballast as I was already 10hrs into that day.

The next weekend, I took a crew out and played with the wave some and found that if I pitched up any at all the wave would go from clean to completely washed out just like when the top bracket was rotated. This leads me to believe the unused plate could be touching the water at higher pitch angles. I wished I had taken pictures but......both the washed wave with the bracket issue and the washed wave with the brackets corrected and at higher pitches looked very similar as the both actually had a little curl on the non-surf side. It looked like the wave was trying to form on the other side. I was real light in ballast that weekend as I only had 3400lbs of total ballast including people.

Based on my results alone, I’d say I have work to do using your settings from your and ragboys post a couple years ago.

This past Saturday I had 4200lbs of ballast, people and was able to get a decent regular wave, but was short and not very long. My pitch was like 5degrees or so. I soooo happy just to get a wave that I could actually ride a little, I didn’t optimize any further and enjoyed the day, but I suspect that if I pitched up any the wave would wash just like it did with less ballast and just like Cnote.




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[Germaine Marine]

My cliff notes:

I’m new to tige, and have a 2019 R23. First time on water to test surf wave and the wave was all washed out all the time no matter the setting. 2nd time in water, I was joined by my dealer and was not able to produce any kind of surfwave period no matter settings or balllast. Got back to dealership and the more experienced sales guy(a guy that actually surfs) pointed out that the top brackets were rotated 180 causing the unused surf plate to engage the water causing the washout. Fixed bracket and went back to lake and was able to make a clean wave but we didn’t optimize ballast as I was already 10hrs into that day.

The next weekend, I took a crew out and played with the wave some and found that if I pitched up any at all the wave would go from clean to completely washed out just like when the top bracket was rotated. This leads me to believe the unused plate could be touching the water at higher pitch angles. I wished I had taken pictures but......both the washed wave with the bracket issue and the washed wave with the brackets corrected and at higher pitches looked very similar as the both actually had a little curl on the non-surf side. It looked like the wave was trying to form on the other side. I was real light in ballast that weekend as I only had 3400lbs of total ballast including people.

Based on my results alone, I’d say I have work to do using your settings from your and ragboys post a couple years ago.

This past Saturday I had 4200lbs of ballast, people and was able to get a decent regular wave, but was short and not very long. My pitch was like 5degrees or so. I soooo happy just to get a wave that I could actually ride a little, I didn’t optimize any further and enjoyed the day, but I suspect that if I pitched up any the wave would wash just like it did with less ballast and just like Cnote.




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Lots of variables here.

Where is the weight first and what were the total settings. From ballast to plates to speed?

[Bamer]

18 R23 surf setup changes...what happened?

Lots of variables here.

Where is the weight first and what were the total settings. From ballast to plates to speed?

The boat:
I assume my factory ballast is 3000lbs capacity. My dealer could not tell me what I have capacity wise between the bow and stern lockers And in-floor versus plug n play. The boat has in-floor bags in the rear lockers and in the bow. It also has plug n play L shaped bags that fill rear lockers and extend forward under the seats. I believe this configuration is 800lbs total in bow and 2200 lbs in rear to meet the specified 3000lbs on Tige’s website. I only have 200lbs of lead, but am getting 500lbs more. Should be enough as I will always have >600lbs of people on-board.

Raptor 400 w/acme 537, at 700ft elevation.

The lake:
17-19ft deep, 10-15mph winds, but sheltered by a bridge. Water was pretty calm except for occasional boat wakes.

The setup:
I had all bags 100% full 3000lbs. Ran pumps until water overflowed vent, (need a method to verify if I have air trapped in the bags). 100lbs lead in each rear locker all the way aft, 320lbs of people in bow(4 kiddos), 600-700lbs of people in main cabin area with most weight towards surf side and aft, >3/4 tank of gas. The swim platform was 8-10inches below the water line when not underway.

The plates:
All over the board in most all possible combinations. Best settings were center plate 1-2, surf plate 3-4. I could feel the boat Yaw and list when transitioning from left to right and vice verse. So I believe the plates are moving. What was very notable and another possible indication the non surf plate is hitting the water is that as I increased the center plate or the surf plate value (ie towards a larger value like 6-8) the boat really didn’t list more or pitch up much at all and started to washout. However, I could hear the engine working much harder to maintain speed which indicates to me the plates were moving down thus increasing drag of the boat. If.... and I am speculating, the non surf plate is starting to contact the water, this would make it harder to pitch up or list more and make more drag causing the engine to work harder.

Boat Speed:
Tried 10.4-11.6, best wave at 10.8-11.0

Getting up to speed:
I was impressed with the relative ease in which the raptor 400 got the boat up to speed with the acme537 and with so much weight. I only used just over half to 3/4 throttle while gettin up to speed. I believe this indicates that I am running with a relatively low pitch or that I am FOS about my ballast numbers some how. Do you know how I can verify my actual factory ballast setup?

As with any good design of experiment, I only changed 1 variable at a time, then observed results.


Thanks in advanced for all the help!!!! These forums only work when there are subject matter expects that share their knowledge and experience with newbies like myself!!!!!

THIS DUDE:
I have 20yrs experience with two bow rider IO’s but am new to the Vdrive world....



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[Bamer]

Oh yeah, I also had this guy aboard. In this pic he is about to fall over because he was napping sitting up. Lol




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[cnote]

Lots of variables here.

Where is the weight first and what were the total settings. From ballast to plates to speed?

OK, let me chime in on this one since i started the thread. Thanks for your time @elevated - it's your post that really helped me dial in the wave last year.

Running exact same settings as last year and only changed variable is taps 3 plate mount change, and the wave at those settings is all wash. Here is how i set it up last year:

Ballast
Rears: 100% (1100# each) full. I plug them as well to stop passive draining while underway.
Fronts: fill them all the way up until overflowing, then back down to about 85/50 higher to the surf side to list her a bit
Lead: 900# total, all aft. 600# under the bags (though sometimes i'd leave a few out in cockpit to play with depending on crew), 180# in activity lockers, 120# in the storage compartment tray above engine.
People: anywhere from 300 - 1000#. But we could use the ballast above and still create a bomber wave with just me and a driver.
Taps 3: 4
Taps 2: 3-5
Engine: Raptor 4000
Prop: Acme 2419
Speed: 10.8-11.4
RPM: 3200 - 3400 subject to factors above
Pitch: 9-11 degrees. I could tell it was right on when i sat on bolster seat and bow was just at horizon.
Roll: 3-5 degrees
surf pretty much 100% goofy, occasional backside

Regarding this year's settings, if i pitch above 6 degrees the wave washes out. I tried multiple variables of surf and speed and taps. Eventually I was able to produce a not-as-good wave with same ballast levels except 100/80 in the front, as well as only about 600 lead in the rear so that my pitch/roll ended up around 6/3. Also, surf settings have changed to TAPS3 at 5 and TAPS2 at 3-5. It's also much more finicky/unstable (a little bit of chop or wind pushes it over - didn't really use to do this, it was firm), lacks push at the back (doesn't curl, just crumbles), and is not as tall. Speed about the same. RPMS actually a little lower.

I checked the taps3 plate brackets, they're mounted correctly (at least the ones on the plates themselves). Actuators are engaging, because the boat will yaw and lean when surf is engaged, and like i said i can still produce a not-as-good-as-last-year wave.

Something is causing the wave to wash out when pitched higher. It's this higher pitch that based on experience produces the best wave possible from this hull. That something, right now, is the mystery. I am going to run all the pictorial and video evidence i can think of this weekend. Then taking to dealer afterwards to rule out the actuators. If there are any specific pics or video or settings you recommend i grab and try, then i'm open to all suggestions. For example Koolaid from Tige suggested i run surf at a 7 (i tried this already but going to work it again). TIA for any advice!!!

[cnote]

one more note on this year's settings, the remaining 300# lead i had in the back now has to be up front, along with any people needed to get the less-than optimal *new* running attitude that will actually produce a wave.

[BJM]

Namer,

Disclaimer: I don’t have a taps3 Z3.

We have a 2015 Z3 with AVX. We upgraded the bags to MLA bags and added 600 LBS of lead. On days with lots of people or everyone sitting near the back we would get cavitation with the 537. This was while running listed. The boat would hold speed but the RPM would surge up and down. While this happened the wave would was out the top and get dirty.

While experimenting with different wake shapers and more evenly weighted we could never get a surfable goofy wave and would get the RPM surge but speed holding on both sides.

We switched to a 2419 and no RPM surge and amazing goofy and regular wave with the mission delta and no listing. This is a long story to ask if you think the 537 might be spinning out and messing things up while still holding speed? Do you ever get RPM surge with the 537 and that much weight?

Cnote,

Not sure on your deal but I hope you figure it out soon. I know some people that have surfed your boat and they love the wave. I’m friends with Caleb and Tony.

Have you asked if you can get your old brackets back and try those? The post about 1/3 less pressure on the actuator seems interesting and makes me think maybe the plate might be pushing up some from the water pressure on the non surf side. That’s another long shot though.

Good luck to both of you two. Fine tuning a good wave to great is fun but dialing no wave to a surfable wave is nothing but frustrating.

Billy

[cnote]

thanks Billy... going to keep testing, not sure about the brackets, as not only the brackets were swapped but the hull mounting position - there was a SS plate put on to cover the old holes. If you are who i think you are I think i may have been on your boat with your mom, caleb and toni last year when y'all first got the mission delta shaper. It's awesome wave w/ that shaper.

[Bamer]

18 R23 surf setup changes...what happened?

Namer,

Disclaimer: I don’t have a taps3 Z3.

We have a 2015 Z3 with AVX. We upgraded the bags to MLA bags and added 600 LBS of lead. On days with lots of people or everyone sitting near the back we would get cavitation with the 537. This was while running listed. The boat would hold speed but the RPM would surge up and down. While this happened the wave would was out the top and get dirty.

While experimenting with different wake shapers and more evenly weighted we could never get a surfable goofy wave and would get the RPM surge but speed holding on both sides.

We switched to a 2419 and no RPM surge and amazing goofy and regular wave with the mission delta and no listing. This is a long story to ask if you think the 537 might be spinning out and messing things up while still holding speed? Do you ever get RPM surge with the 537 and that much weight?

Cnote,

Not sure on your deal but I hope you figure it out soon. I know some people that have surfed your boat and they love the wave. I’m friends with Caleb and Tony.

Have you asked if you can get your old brackets back and try those? The post about 1/3 less pressure on the actuator seems interesting and makes me think maybe the plate might be pushing up some from the water pressure on the non surf side. That’s another long shot though.

Good luck to both of you two. Fine tuning a good wave to great is fun but dialing no wave to a surfable wave is nothing but frustrating.

Billy

Hey Billy,

Based on dealer recommendation and all of the experts recommendations on this forum, I do believe the 537 is not the best prop for the R23 for surfing with lots of ballast. Looks like the 2419 or similar is better for my engine and lake elevation. With that said, I know what cavitation feels and sounds like from my IO experience and from a friends supra 21V (I believe it was). I have not experienced cavitation with the 537.......yet at least. Lol.


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[Bamer]

OK, let me chime in on this one since i started the thread. Thanks for your time @elevated - it's your post that really helped me dial in the wave last year.

Running exact same settings as last year and only changed variable is taps 3 plate mount change, and the wave at those settings is all wash. Here is how i set it up last year:

Ballast
Rears: 100% (1100# each) full. I plug them as well to stop passive draining while underway.
Fronts: fill them all the way up until overflowing, then back down to about 85/50 higher to the surf side to list her a bit
Lead: 900# total, all aft. 600# under the bags (though sometimes i'd leave a few out in cockpit to play with depending on crew), 180# in activity lockers, 120# in the storage compartment tray above engine.
People: anywhere from 300 - 1000#. But we could use the ballast above and still create a bomber wave with just me and a driver.
Taps 3: 4
Taps 2: 3-5
Engine: Raptor 4000
Prop: Acme 2419
Speed: 10.8-11.4
RPM: 3200 - 3400 subject to factors above
Pitch: 9-11 degrees. I could tell it was right on when i sat on bolster seat and bow was just at horizon.
Roll: 3-5 degrees
surf pretty much 100% goofy, occasional backside

Regarding this year's settings, if i pitch above 6 degrees the wave washes out. I tried multiple variables of surf and speed and taps. Eventually I was able to produce a not-as-good wave with same ballast levels except 100/80 in the front, as well as only about 600 lead in the rear so that my pitch/roll ended up around 6/3. Also, surf settings have changed to TAPS3 at 5 and TAPS2 at 3-5. It's also much more finicky/unstable (a little bit of chop or wind pushes it over - didn't really use to do this, it was firm), lacks push at the back (doesn't curl, just crumbles), and is not as tall. Speed about the same. RPMS actually a little lower.

I checked the taps3 plate brackets, they're mounted correctly (at least the ones on the plates themselves). Actuators are engaging, because the boat will yaw and lean when surf is engaged, and like i said i can still produce a not-as-good-as-last-year wave.

Something is causing the wave to wash out when pitched higher. It's this higher pitch that based on experience produces the best wave possible from this hull. That something, right now, is the mystery. I am going to run all the pictorial and video evidence i can think of this weekend. Then taking to dealer afterwards to rule out the actuators. If there are any specific pics or video or settings you recommend i grab and try, then i'm open to all suggestions. For example Koolaid from Tige suggested i run surf at a 7 (i tried this already but going to work it again). TIA for any advice!!!

With 4000ft-lbs of torque, that motor should shoot the boat out the water like a rocket ship!!!lol [emoji23]


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[cnote]

With 4000ft-lbs of torque, that motor should shoot the boat out the water like a rocket ship!!!lol [emoji23]


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lol...i knew someone would catch that

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[KoolAid]

The setup:
I had all bags 100% full 3000lbs. Ran pumps until water overflowed vent, (need a method to verify if I have air trapped in the bags). 100lbs lead in each rear locker all the way aft, 320lbs of people in bow(4 kiddos), 600-700lbs of people in main cabin area with most weight towards surf side and aft, >3/4 tank of gas. The swim platform was 8-10inches below the water line when not underway.

The plates:
All over the board in most all possible combinations. Best settings were center plate 1-2, surf plate 3-4. I could feel the boat Yaw and list when transitioning from left to right and vice verse. So I believe the plates are moving. What was very notable and another possible indication the non surf plate is hitting the water is that as I increased the center plate or the surf plate value (ie towards a larger value like 6-8) the boat really didn’t list more or pitch up much at all and started to washout. However, I could hear the engine working much harder to maintain speed which indicates to me the plates were moving down thus increasing drag of the boat. If.... and I am speculating, the non surf plate is starting to contact the water, this would make it harder to pitch up or list more and make more drag causing the engine to work harder.


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Hold off on the extra weight/lead. More weight doesn't always mean a bigger wave. Adding the weight now is tossing in an extra variable that doesn't help solve the wave issue.

Taps should be set around 4. Having it set at 1 to 2 is burying the nose of the boat.

With the plate changes you need to set surf at 7 for your starting point. 1-3 is only going to mess the wave up in most cases.

[Bamer]

18 R23 surf setup changes...what happened?

Hold off on the extra weight/lead. More weight doesn't always mean a bigger wave. Adding the weight now is tossing in an extra variable that doesn't help solve the wave issue.

Taps should be set around 4. Having it set at 1 to 2 is burying the nose of the boat.

With the plate changes you need to set surf at 7 for your starting point. 1-3 is only going to mess the wave up in most cases.

Ok. I will set the surf at 7, and the center plate to 4, then move weight forward and aft until the wave cleans up.

I hear ya about the weight. The extra lead would be for days when I have a lighter crew as compared to this past weekend.


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