R23 vs Z3 vs 'Bu 23lsv?

[cnote]

totally with you on the G. Rode one, with ballast (ppl and lead) and was thoroughly unimpressed with wave (goofy at least).

[cnote]

great feedback from all, love this forum! Thank you! I'm also leaning now towards new R23 (Vs older Z3), for reasons mentioned. One thing i want more info on is the tige-specific 360R indmar vs the raptor400. I have asked Tige (factory) and Indmar for more info on the real differences between the two (again other than slight HP and torque settings), bottom line for me, does it justify the extra $1500 (dlr's opinion is no). BTW - dealer says he can put the 440/460 in the R23, but cost goes up $5k!

Regarding elevation i'm running at is going to be right at 1000'AMSL (PK lake, for those of you familiar w/ North TX). No high altitude running.

[bsreid]

Someone posted horsepower numbers for the new engines and I’d definitely want to jump up to the 400. If you slam it with ballast you’ll be spelling that much money finding the right prop.

[freeheel4life]

Dj13,
The ballast pumps are all Atwood 1200s.
https://www.wakemakers.com/attwood-t...YaApB0EALw_wcB
As far as bags go I believe it depends on if you are getting pro or extreme package. Basically one is a round bag the other is an L bag that extended under rear seats towards front of the boat as well as filling the locker. Regardless, if you are chasing that perfect wave you are adding lead.

It's been discussed before but the only difference in raptor options is the tune on ECM. The 360 has some small tweaks related to raw water cooling system, but has all the same engine internals as the 400 and 440. Only hardware changes on the 460 and the supercharged. 460 has a different intake manifold(believe it's the same intake from the gt350), larger throttle body, and larger exhaust and more tuning changes. Hence the bigger price jump between 440 and 460.
All my boating occurs between 3000ft and 5000ft so to me wouldn't even consider a heavily weighted 23ft boat with a 360. While doing some experimenting with a Moomba Craz with a 400 two summer's ago we were easily able to overload it on ballast and wouldn't come out of the hole at all. I don't make enough working on boats to pay for one so it's easy to say get the 400, but in my mind I'd rather pay the 1500 and be able to weight boat more with confidence than come up against limit of what the engine can pull and be stuck. That being said though a good dealer would know if the 360 is adequate for your elevation. I'm not in sales but I'm sure our sales guy wouldn't even put the 360 on the table for a 23' for our elevation.

[Langwell]

Im convinced you can get a 17 z3 leftover within your budget. I would get what you want if its within range , for that kinda money dont settle.

[cnote]

Someone posted horsepower numbers for the new engines and I’d definitely want to jump up to the 400. If you slam it with ballast you’ll be spelling that much money finding the right prop.

yep HP is 308 vs 350; Torque is 360 vs 404. Also, Tige actually got back to me (on a weekend!) with this:

There are numerous differences between the Raptor 400 and 360. Both engines run the exact same block, are both closed cooled, and both run the Indmar V transmission. The 360 doesn’t come standard with the visual Sea Strainer for catching debris or monitoring water flow to the engine (also is used for running your engine in the driveway through connecting a water hose directly into sea strainer). The 360 is also going to have different shift solenoid and fewer sensors for optimizing fuel mixtures. There are a few other differences I can describe with you over the phone if you would like, but essentially, the Raptor branded motor gets a few more features for optimizing performance and fuel consumption.

[freeheel4life]

The Indmar strainer is a super easy add on. Tige builds all their boats w a ball valve at the thru hull so even easier to add strainer after if you wanted. Haven't had to dive into the 360 as we've only sold a few in r20 and r21, but I'm pretty sure it's running pre cat and post cat 02s. Narrow and wideband. Would be curious to find out what sensors are omitted. Typically less sensor inputs to ECM leads to fat fuel and retarded timing on the tune as it keeps the engine "safer". 15 and 16 360s had a canister oil filter that would contact a raw water line making it tough to change. You have to unbolt the remote housing and pivot it to get filter off. 17 went to a paper cartridge and is no longer a problem. Not sure of the difference in shift solenoids, but a magnet, is a magnet. Gets a switched 12v and shuttles the valve. Not really worth noting. 40ft lbs of torque tho...

[cnote]

thanks again for all the great feedback. for those of you interested, here are some more details on the differences between indmar 360r and indmar raptor 400:

360 does not have Fresh water sea strainer standard, 400 does
400 has multiple temperature sensors on the intake to maximize efficiency and power, the 360 does not have those sensors. Essentially it relies exclusively on the air fuel sensors to relay messages to the engine’s computer which is more inefficient
To that same point, when the engine diagnoses a problem with fuel burn, fuel/air mixtures, it is much more accurate in the 400. Also, if the engine were to have a problem and throw a code, the solution is much easier on a 400 because of all the sensors. We can determine the root cause much easier rather than hunting and pecking for a solution.
There is no fuel pressor sensor on the 360 like on the 400
We run a different, more robust, more expensive shift valve on the transmission for the 400 versus the 360.
On the drain plugs for the manifolds, we route a drain loop that has a single hand twist blue plug on the 400 versus the 360 that has two brass manifold plugs. Same purpose, just much easier to service on the 400

[TigeFamily]

Personally think you would be crazy not to go to the 400 for $1500...you will get that back in resale since not a high difference, if nothing else it guarantees the sale and some would think the 360 is under powered, whether it is or not. Its about perception for those folks. That extra torque could also be the difference between it struggling, or not... if full of ballast and people. Probably more efficient on fuel as well when surfing since lower rpm's

[Bakes5]

I would NEVER buy a Z3 with a 360.

[Bakes5]

I would NEVER buy a Z3 with a 360.

Let me clarify. Z3 is a big boat. The 440 is a great motor in it but it certainly bumps against performance limits. I would love to have the Z3 with the supercharged motor. I would be very unhappy with 360ft-lb torque when 400-440 ft-lb of torque is marginally sufficient. There is a reason that Tige is going to the 2:1 transmission and it's not because the 400/440 have too much power.


First rule of happy boating: The boat must start every time
2nd rule of happy boating: The boat must not be a performance dog



Everything else is gravy

[Germaine Marine]

Let me clarify. Z3 is a big boat. The 440 is a great motor in it but it certainly bumps against performance limits. I would love to have the Z3 with the supercharged motor. I would be very unhappy with 360ft-lb torque when 400-440 ft-lb of torque is marginally sufficient. There is a reason that Tige is going to the 2:1 transmission and it's not because the 400/440 have too much power.


First rule of happy boating: The boat must start every time
2nd rule of happy boating: The boat must not be a performance dog



Everything else is gravy

The only reason Tige is doing the 2-1 is to make the more budget friendly powertrain options a realistic choice in the RZX line. We have had a 400z3with big weight propped correctly at 6k feet it was no issue. I believe the German ran his at powel with big big weight and he is running a less aggressive prop, he too had no issues. I dont think the Z needs any more power then the 400, but If I could afford it I wouldnt say no, thats for sure.

Obviously wanting a boat that does 40 and pulls like a tank out of a 1.5/1 might be unrealistic, but a stump puller that also does 35-36 is dooable out of 400 for sure

[Bakes5]

^^^Agree 100%. Not sure my 440 is really any bettter than the 400. But...it's gonna help if I ever sell it and I'm certain I would be able to tell the difference between a 440 and the 360.

My boat does everything I want with the 15x14 pitch OJ prop. Move to a 15 x 14.25 with an aggressive cut and it's a much different slalom hole shot. Max speed with my 14 pitch is 38mph. I don't really care about max speed but I do like lower RPM cruising speeds. The 14.25 pitch maxed at 40-41 but WOT dropped from 5500 to 5300 RPM which makes me think it was slightly overpropped since it could not hit 5500 RPM. I'm curious to see how the 14.25 performs at sea level.

[dakota4ce]

^^^Agree 100%. Not sure my 440 is really any bettter than the 400. But...it's gonna help if I ever sell it and I'm certain I would be able to tell the difference between a 440 and the 360.

My boat does everything I want with the 15x14 pitch OJ prop. Move to a 15 x 14.25 with an aggressive cut and it's a much different slalom hole shot. Max speed with my 14 pitch is 38mph. I don't really care about max speed but I do like lower RPM cruising speeds. The 14.25 pitch maxed at 40-41 but WOT dropped from 5500 to 5300 RPM which makes me think it was slightly overpropped since it could not hit 5500 RPM. I'm curious to see how the 14.25 performs at sea level.

You just said 400-440 is marginally sufficient and that you would like the 575, elevated said naw, man-it’s plenty, then you agreed 100%. Did I miss something?


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[cnote]

give me the stump puller. this is a surfing machine, not a speed boat

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