Thinking About A New Boat

[Germaine Marine]

Well, there isn't a B52 Tomcat model, so not sure what boat you were in. Second, sounds like the boat wasn't set up properly. Lots and lots of GSA/MB owners have their tabs set up poorly. I mean lots. With the settings correct, the wave is large, very steep, has a beautiful "transition" (which can be defined 39 different ways), and has craploads of push. But that's all subjective, right? What isn't as subjective is a direct comparison to a dialed RZX on the same day approximately 50 times last summer (or more, we both put 150 hours on). Set up identically to Ragboy's (we emailed him constantly--awesome dude). Surf one boat, park it, surf the other. Yes the surf waves had slightly different shapes, but not drastic by any stretch. The MB wave is taller and longer, and if you speed up it becomes longer yet. Tige had a little bit more of a mid-lip at the front. Neither were skim waves in the least. The MB wave with the tabs correctly set up is WAAAY too steep for the average skimmer. It would be hard to hold onto it without big fins. I always kind of giggle at the suggestion that Convex V is magical and produces "more push". It helps for sure, and it's a genius innovation. But it isn't as big of a deal or difference maker as some implore.

BUT, and the big BUT here, is the budget. $70K. That's a tough one to get a dialed TAPS3 Tige. See: impossible, really. Not remotely impossible to get into an MB, and darn close to a new one. That's really my point; the value proposition is really really strong at that price.

I love Tiges. But they cost a pretty penny!


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All of these new boats are super set-up specific and usually are not the same across the board. Many many changes in plate angle between RAGS boat and others, many ballast changes and the list goes on, not including what he carries in gear/people on avg for each trip. SO SO SO many variables so the emailing him back and forth while getting your closer still wont net the ideal setup. You have to get out and know what the boats do feel wise to set one up ideally and to me that is where the debate about convex v comes in.

I have been in a ton of boats and not one has responded the same as TIGE when weighting the boat down and I attribute it to Convex V.

Slam it correctly and the boat draws down in the water deeper as you approach and pass 12mph... I just havent seen this with other hulls. Yes it affects the lip but I really thinks its claim to being able to hug the boat deeper in the water at increased speeds is real and not as gimmicky as some think.

The nice thing about that, is it is a great measuring tool for setting the boat up correctly.... it will either do the things mentionted above when correct or it wont. If it wont then something isnt right....

[dakota4ce]

All of these new boats are super set-up specific and usually are not the same across the board. Many many changes in plate angle between RAGS boat and others, many ballast changes and the list goes on, not including what he carries in gear/people on avg for each trip. SO SO SO many variables so the emailing him back and forth while getting your closer still wont net the ideal setup. You have to get out and know what the boats do feel wise to set one up ideally and to me that is where the debate about convex v comes in.

I have been in a ton of boats and not one has responded the same as TIGE when weighting the boat down and I attribute it to Convex V.

Slam it correctly and the boat draws down in the water deeper as you approach and pass 12mph... I just havent seen this with other hulls. Yes it affects the lip but I really thinks its claim to being able to hug the boat deeper in the water at increased speeds is real and not as gimmicky as some think.

The nice thing about that, is it is a great measuring tool for setting the boat up correctly.... it will either do the things mentionted above when correct or it wont. If it wont then something isnt right....

Totally get it. We are close, for sure, and are definitely not set up exactly like Rag's boat. We just dialogued with him a lot as we messed with things. I am sure there is room for improvement, yet. I was more disputing the immediate dismissal of any wave that is not coming off a Convex V hull. It helps without question. I kind of feel similar to the GSA tab design that you feel with Convex V--there is more than meets the eye at play, but no one uses it correctly. Most setups are lacking in some way. If you really get down to it, neat things happen.

We are actually running the RZX more what you described to me when we were texting for weight setup. The only thing we haven't gotten it to do is improve noticeably past 12mph.

Unfortunately as weekend warriors, the proper number of hours required for complete vetting of the ideal setup are tough to come by. It is unfortunate that its not easier to arrive at. Lord knows I have run umpteen different setups on my MB and found ways to improve.

Elevated you should hire yourself out to go around and set up boats. Wave consulting....

[dakota4ce]

I think it really depends on "WHAT" type of room we are talking.... MB Is much bigger feel wise laterally in the boat however the boats across the line are not nearly as deep. To me, thats where the debate comes in, what is more important to you. To some, the depth of the boat isnt very important, to me and others IT IS EVERYTHING.

I agree with you--but depth isn't useful room for accommodating more passengers. Width and cockpit length are important there; i.e. "elbow room."

I would submit that the Tige RZXs are almost too deep. You cannot stack bodies on top of each other to get more elbow room in the boat, unfortunately, so what good is that room beyond a certain point? Yes the RZX is much deeper than the MB, however, the MB is certainly deep enough. I have 4 kids under 12, and the depth is ideal for safety vs the ability to see outside of the boat. We boat on a rough a$$ lake, huge absurd rollers. We feel extremely safe in the MB. We never get wet. We never take waves over the sides or bow. And although the RZX is off the charts deep, it has taken several partial waves over the bow. The nose hangs too low--not sure why the design is like that. Several Tige designs have the drooped nose for some reason. So to me the depth is negated when a bath comes in over the nose. Again, my opinion.

To me, and the RZX2 solves this, the biggest space killer for passenger room is a playpen. It puts more pressure on the cockpit. Adults are less likely to hop into the playpen bow to escape the crowd--only kids for the most part. It just feels much more open air in my boat, which is good for our large and busy family.

But lets recall the spirit of this thread--a big, good surfer for $70K. All boats have their plusses and minuses. At that price, the MB has a ton to offer. Or, You could buy 2/3 of an RZX, or a surf system-less older Z3. And I still maintain that for 8-9 people, the Z3 is too small compared to other offerings of the same length. It is a small 23 footer, to me. Awesome boat, beautiful style and quality, but tight inside.

[Bakes5]

For surfing it would be asinine to shut the boat off for the 15 seconds or so it takes to switch riders. I think its all a matter of opinion. Long wait time sure shut the boat down, but to switch surfers in and out, no way. As for it being dangerous.... I would say thats a wild toss to left field....

But you know what they say about opinions.......

Surfing with a couple of reasonable adults who know what they are doing and are quick and efficient on transitions....absolutely agree. Unfortunately, that isn't my life 3/4 times. I wish it was.

Running with a boat full of kids....yep, it's dangerous. I have personally seen kids engage the throttle during transitions. It happens like this: Dad, the driver/rope manager/instructor goes back to give a little instruction and the 6 y/o jumps into the drivers seat and starts playing around with the throttle and steering wheel.

Also, I just hate messing around on the swim deck with the boat running. It's noisy and like having my face in an exhaust pipe. I just don't see the point of keeping it running while lacing up the wakeboard boots, floating after a great ride, messing around with wetsuits, drying off and shooting the bull, etc...and I see it all the time.

Anyways...just my opinion.

[dakota4ce]

We never shut down for surfer changes, but my kids never mess with the throttle, which is good. They do like the switches, however! If I had a throttle messer in the boat, I would shut her down every time.

Cheap insurance against a horrible accident. Asinine might be too strong of a rebuke elevated, especially in with the logic Bakes is forced to employ around the kiddos....

[dakota4ce]

UNSTUCK--its your thread buddy! Lets talk sub-70K boats!

[Germaine Marine]

We never shut down for surfer changes, but my kids never mess with the throttle, which is good. They do like the switches, however! If I had a throttle messer in the boat, I would shut her down every time.

Cheap insurance against a horrible accident. Asinine might be too strong of a rebuke elevated, especially in with the logic Bakes is forced to employ around the kiddos....

Lets use common sense here. IF the driver is ever getting out of the driver seat then the boat should absolutely be shut down, I didnt think I needed to state that but there it is anyway.

I dont go out with Kids so my opinion on this differs. The driver is driving in my boat and thats it, not instructing, messing with the rope or god knows what else goes on.

I think we are all in agreement, different scenarios call for different types of operation is all I have been trying to get at.......

[dakota4ce]

Lets use common sense here. IF the driver is ever getting out of the driver seat then the boat should absolutely be shut down, I didnt think I needed to state that but there it is anyway.

I dont go out with Kids so my opinion on this differs. The driver is driving in my boat and thats it, not instructing, messing with the rope or god knows what else goes on.

I think we are all in agreement, different scenarios call for different types of operation is all I have been trying to get at.......

Lots and lots of things change about life when kids come into the picture. I actually can't recall what I was like before them....probably pretty cool I'd imagine.

[Germaine Marine]

I agree with you--but depth isn't useful room for accommodating more passengers. Width and cockpit length are important there; i.e. "elbow room."

I would submit that the Tige RZXs are almost too deep. You cannot stack bodies on top of each other to get more elbow room in the boat, unfortunately, so what good is that room beyond a certain point? Yes the RZX is much deeper than the MB, however, the MB is certainly deep enough. I have 4 kids under 12, and the depth is ideal for safety vs the ability to see outside of the boat. We boat on a rough a$$ lake, huge absurd rollers. We feel extremely safe in the MB. We never get wet. We never take waves over the sides or bow. And although the RZX is off the charts deep, it has taken several partial waves over the bow. The nose hangs too low--not sure why the design is like that. Several Tige designs have the drooped nose for some reason. So to me the depth is negated when a bath comes in over the nose. Again, my opinion.

To me, and the RZX2 solves this, the biggest space killer for passenger room is a playpen. It puts more pressure on the cockpit. Adults are less likely to hop into the playpen bow to escape the crowd--only kids for the most part. It just feels much more open air in my boat, which is good for our large and busy family.

But lets recall the spirit of this thread--a big, good surfer for $70K. All boats have their plusses and minuses. At that price, the MB has a ton to offer. Or, You could buy 2/3 of an RZX, or a surf system-less older Z3. And I still maintain that for 8-9 people, the Z3 is too small compared to other offerings of the same length. It is a small 23 footer, to me. Awesome boat, beautiful style and quality, but tight inside.

Totally agree, I do however think a ton of people share different opinions about what is comfortable to them depth wise. For me, after being in a TIGE, anything less deep would be uncomfortable, not deal breaking my any stretch just uncomfortable. I dont ever need to stack bodies as I never slam my boat with people so the lateral room to me is less important but I could see for some that need to get as many people on as possible it being an issue. Plenty big to go out with 10 and deep enough to give me and my guests some added comfort.

Again, all preference.

As for MB, love the B52..... been in one, surfed one. Great boat regardless of money if thats in the running.

[dakota4ce]

UNSTUCK--I recall speaking with Ryan from GSA once regarding his system on 23LSV boats doing very well. 2012ish boats of this nature can be had in that price realm. Maybe another to consider? I am not a Bu fan, but up in this neck of the woods they are everywhere. Minnesota Inboard Marine, I once heard, is the largest Bu dealer in the country. I would believe it based on the sheer number of them around these parts!

[Germaine Marine]

Totally get it. We are close, for sure, and are definitely not set up exactly like Rag's boat. We just dialogued with him a lot as we messed with things. I am sure there is room for improvement, yet. I was more disputing the immediate dismissal of any wave that is not coming off a Convex V hull. It helps without question. I kind of feel similar to the GSA tab design that you feel with Convex V--there is more than meets the eye at play, but no one uses it correctly. Most setups are lacking in some way. If you really get down to it, neat things happen.

We are actually running the RZX more what you described to me when we were texting for weight setup. The only thing we haven't gotten it to do is improve noticeably past 12mph.

Unfortunately as weekend warriors, the proper number of hours required for complete vetting of the ideal setup are tough to come by. It is unfortunate that its not easier to arrive at. Lord knows I have run umpteen different setups on my MB and found ways to improve.

Elevated you should hire yourself out to go around and set up boats. Wave consulting....

I wish I had the time :/ its definitely something I like doing and am fairy decent at but yeah just not enough time. The Demo aspect can tackle some of that, but im not even really doing that at the moment.

It really just boils down to seeing people happy to me. Whether its them coming on my boat and having a blast, or me getting someone into a boat at a killer deal..... i really just enjoy the dealings with people.

[Germaine Marine]

Moomba isnt making too shabby of a boat either........... you get supra hard parts and supra tech at an affordable price.

[Bakes5]

The driver is driving in my boat and thats it, not instructing, messing with the rope or god knows what else goes on.

That happens about 2 times a year for me....usually when I'm driving my brothers boat.

For $70k you can get a lot of boat. B52, 23 LSV, 247, Z3, RZ4, RZ24 would all make great choices. Just know that surfing with any of these is going to require lots of weight, a big motor, and lots of time tweaking it. It's not going to be a simple "out if the box" deal like an RZX or G23 probably are...even those get little extra lead I hear.

To me on my boat, surfing means compromise. I have to put a bunch of lead weight in to get a sweet wave...but that weight is a bit a a pain to put in and then does not help anything when the kids want to tube, slalom, foil, etc. In the end, I
Just leave the weight at home and really only surf if I have a lot of human ballast. The good news is that if I ever did become a surfer only, I could just set it up to surf and not mess with it. However, since we do a lot of other things, I compromise the surf wave a bit in order to do everything else.

Great problem to have

[UNSTUCK]

I'll be driving right by the MB dealer today. I hope to be able to look at a b52 and f24. I will look at that all black f24 on Monday. I can still take that one on the water if I want but doubt I'll surf behind it. That doesn't matter much anyways as it doesn't have surf tabs yet.
I'll be in PHX for Christmas through New Years. I hope to drive a mojo, and a z3 at least that week. I think I will limit to those four. Once I know which one we want the search will be on. There are two z3's in Cali that I am very interested in.

[dakota4ce]

I almost spit out my food when I read that you wrote that the RZX is an out-of-the-box surfer. We spent more time tweaking that boat than mine!

Never been in a G 23. Maybe it's true for that one?


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