My design for a TAPS3-VX

[JohnnieMo]

My design for a TAPS3-VX

Okay, so the NSS test is going to be more difficult than I planned. The trailer bunks extend beyond the back of the boat, so I need to trim those back before I can do a proper implementation. Even then it would be pretty tight to fit a NSS style in that location. The gap between the Vx and the boat is only about 3/16". That could be altered, however there is only about 12" in that location in which to fit the actuator. That is barely enough. It would be a challenge.





For now I am going to just try a smaller tab and try and extend it fully to 90 degrees. I'm starting to think smaller could be better.



The more I think about it, it's the water you don't see that is affecting the wave. It's easy to think that the water spray going over top is the primary culprit, however all it does is make the wave a touchy frothy. It's the water underneath that gives the wave it's volume. In my fifth video I talk about the "strange void" behind the suck gate. I think that void is what causes the water inside the wave to shift. (obviously working in tandem with the angle of incidence of the boat) So I am altering my approach somewhat. I'm starting to see why TAPS3 works as well as it does....

[JohnnieMo]

Okay a couple results to share. The small gate was a bust. I took a video but didn't even bother posting it. It was basically the same as the lower deflection of the larger gate I did before.

What's odd is Ewok and I built a small gate like it last year and it seemingly mimicked the Suck Gate. However I was still listing at that time.....

Anyways I've pretty much ruled out any way to create a gate. On my hull the gate needs to be forward of the transom to work. Not sure why but that's how it is.

So on elevated's urging I made a NSS implementation. I couldn't get it right on the transom so I thought I would try it on the Vx. I wasn't expecting much.





In this video I test the NSS and the suck gate. For those using a suck gate now pay close attention to the end of the video

https://youtu.be/Ef0Db_l9OdE

Basically the suck gate with a slight downward angle really does the best. My previous theory seems to hold true here. Speed also seems to play little impact with 10.6 up to 11.4 being very comparable waves.

At this point I am getting very close to just giving up this quest. The wave I get off the Vx with the cutting board suck gate is just so amazing I can't ever see getting it any better. I could roll the dice and go with TAPS3 and find that I prefer the Vx wave. Who knows. At this stage I can pay zero and have a wave I love or I could pay $4k and take a risk on TAPS3. I know which way I'm leaning.

I think any further testing will only be in tweaking the suck gate itself.

I really didn't expect to end up here.....

[bsreid]

Come out to the island. We will get you dialed in with some sort of funky gate like I showed earlier.

[JohnnieMo]

Okay, so it's been a pretty full summer of testing and a lot of lessons learned. If we go back to page 1, I posted my desire to be creating the best surf wave possible, while fixing the following:


There are three things I don't like about my 2013 Z1:

1. It is very tippy at speed
2. There is no way to adjust the wake once you are already in motion.
3. Walking around in a heavily listed boat, at rest, is uncomfortable.

So throughout the year I tried the following:

Create a tab, similar to TAPS3 and place it under the Vx

-- This didn't work because the tab requires the hook in it to crab walk the boat. The effect ends up being pushing the bow down and dampening the wave. Changing the shape and size of the tab only makes minor differences. The wave is inferior to surf (although tends to look pretty)

Build an automated gate system

-- I tried all sorts of tests on this. Some were long and skinny gates, while some where short and sider. Some were short and tall. The result was the wave had a fair bit of spray. Making the gates taller didn't seem to help the spray. As the year went on I went from listing with a gate, to evenly weighted with the gate. The wave was definitely better with the list, as less of the gate was in the water (hence less spray). However less in the water meant less positive effects to. In the end I tried many designs and gave up. An automated gate, despite my best intentions just won't work.

NSS style system

-- So this could actually work, but my first (albeit poor) test was a failure. My assumption is the NSS approach won't work on the Z hull. Doing this test could still be in my future, however it would be tough to fabricate just for the test. It would be near impossible to build a fully retractable system that looks nice.

Suck Gate Testing

-- Through all of this, I found the suck gate is a world beater. When I started this thread I had never tried a suck gate, and as I went through the tests I became a believer. I made minor changes to the suck gate, and minor placements alterations. In the end, I switched from listing to mostly evenly weighting. The wave is so much better than what I started with in a stock boat, it's hard to believe it's the same. I have come to the conclusion that the suck gate is the best solution for my hull (short of attempting a TAPS3 install)

---

So if I go back to my aims:

1. The Z1 is very tippy at speed: This is still the case, however I can use my transfer pump to adjust. I rarely go fast too, so I can usually move people around. I've heard the new Z1 doesn't have this issue (I'd love to know how they fixed it). A could still create tabs to solve this very issue, but it's a lot of expense for a one trick pony.

2. There is no way to adjust the wake once in motion: Well this isn't really the case now. Since I'm running mostly evenly weighted, I have some ballast adjustment through the transfer pump. I can also still use TAPS2 to lengthen the wave. The suck gate rarely has issue making a nice wave (it's not as picky about listing angle), so this issue has mostly solved itself.

3. Walking around a listed boat is uncomfortable: I don't list anymore. If anything I have a front to back list due to the insane amount of rear ballast I now run. However people aren't falling over anymore. The list, if anything, is 2 degrees. This one is solved.

---

You can see all my tests if you follow these six videos:

Test Videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxfa26xFnsM&t=56s

So that is that. At this stage my plan is to refine the suck gate a bit. I want to find the best placement, and the best shape, size. I'd also like one that floats. I have a few ideas how to build that. However I am content to save the $4k from a TAPS3 retrofit and enjoy the boat as is. One day if an AVx crosses my path, I might consider it. I think that might be the only other way to improve this setup.

[bsreid]

Johnnie I see you mention AVX. I’ll say this there are two Z3s on my Lake that I know, a 2012 and a 2015 with AVX. The AVX doesn’t like to be weighted evenly as much as a non avx boat does. The 2012 produces a much cleaner wave with that suc gate design that I posted earlier. There’s something amazing with that design, way less stress on the engine than a traditional suc gate.

[JohnnieMo]

Johnnie I see you mention AVX. I’ll say this there are two Z3s on my Lake that I know, a 2012 and a 2015 with AVX. The AVX doesn’t like to be weighted evenly as much as a non avx boat does. The 2012 produces a much cleaner wave with that suc gate design that I posted earlier. There’s something amazing with that design, way less stress on the engine than a traditional suc gate.

If you can, slap a traditional suck gate on that boat and do a direct comparison with the GoPro. That's the only way to know for sure!

I think I can make my suck gate smaller than it is, and hopefully reduce some drag in the process. In my my most recent video (#6) you can clearly see that aiming the gate downward just a bit will clean up the evenly weighted wave a LOT. I think that proves my theory true.

I don't see how AVx or Vx would change the performance of a suck gate. However I could see that A/Vx versus neither would affect the wave. I'm also starting to think the Z1 favours the A/Vx more than the Z3 does. The Z3 is long enough on its own.

[bsreid]

We were actually swapping them out yesterday between three different designs and the traditional had the worst results. Still good but not nearly as good.

[Thegerman618]

Silent follower to this thread and learned a ton! Especially working with the VX system listed over aftermarket systems (suck gates).

The Z1 in those years is a bit tippy at speed and ultra sensitive to weight but that works in 2 fold, while it can be a little bothersome when cruising for long distance as Johnny said a little weight to help balance it out is helpful. BUT.... being that its so weight sensitive is awesome for the fact you can really tune the wave with lead bags. A 50lbs bag moved 5-6" in any direction will net a change in the wave, so you can really dial a wave in.

There is no doubt the VX/AVX systems work, albeit they had a short production run there is no doubt they work and work even better with an added surf system and a little extra weight. The only draw back I have personally seen is these boats are quite particular in where they like the surf system placed on the hull and are not real happy about higher speeds (12.0mph+) usually like the 10.8/11.2 neighborhood.

I have to totally agree with Johnny about keeping the VX and not going TAPS3 Retrofit. It all looks great in theory but there is a lot you loose by doing retro over a factory installed system which wont necessarily guarantee you better results with TAPS3 over your VX with a suck gate. I own a TAPS3 boat and DP has a 14 Z1 w/VX and the WS Edge and his wave is awesome!! Certainly not worth the $4k guess on a better wave with Taps3 and loosing basically half the features of Taps3 on a new boat.

Super interesting and well done write-ups on your tests and where you ended up. I always thought from when this started you were going to cut tabs out of your VX, I was anxiously waiting to see how that would work.

[JohnnieMo]

Silent follower to this thread and learned a ton! Especially working with the VX system listed over aftermarket systems (suck gates).

The Z1 in those years is a bit tippy at speed and ultra sensitive to weight but that works in 2 fold, while it can be a little bothersome when cruising for long distance as Johnny said a little weight to help balance it out is helpful. BUT.... being that its so weight sensitive is awesome for the fact you can really tune the wave with lead bags. A 50lbs bag moved 5-6" in any direction will net a change in the wave, so you can really dial a wave in.

There is no doubt the VX/AVX systems work, albeit they had a short production run there is no doubt they work and work even better with an added surf system and a little extra weight. The only draw back I have personally seen is these boats are quite particular in where they like the surf system placed on the hull and are not real happy about higher speeds (12.0mph+) usually like the 10.8/11.2 neighborhood.

I have to totally agree with Johnny about keeping the VX and not going TAPS3 Retrofit. It all looks great in theory but there is a lot you loose by doing retro over a factory installed system which wont necessarily guarantee you better results with TAPS3 over your VX with a suck gate. I own a TAPS3 boat and DP has a 14 Z1 w/VX and the WS Edge and his wave is awesome!! Certainly not worth the $4k guess on a better wave with Taps3 and loosing basically half the features of Taps3 on a new boat.

Super interesting and well done write-ups on your tests and where you ended up. I always thought from when this started you were going to cut tabs out of your VX, I was anxiously waiting to see how that would work.

Thanks for the feedback! I was never going to cut in to the Vx. My intention was to sandwich a plate to the bottom of the Vx, and drill a 2" hole through the Vx to affix the actuator. I had the design all done... in my head. But it didn't work.

I have also noted that the 11.2 speed was about the max of a good wave with this setup. (I have a video to corroborate) It's great to see some external validation of that. I see a lot of TAPS3 boats running up to the 12's, but I certainly don't see that positive result at those speeds. That's fine for me as the wave is pretty killer at 10.8, and the slower the boat goes, the less momentum the surfer requires (and less gas being used).

As for the tippiness - you are bang on again. It is easy to add a touch of list as needed. I also find the wave is excellent on both sides. The suck gate is truly amazing

--

I've got a couple designs in my head for a buoyant suck gate that I will build this winter. That's my biggest issue with the current design - it needs to be latched to the boat, or to a fender. That just adds risk or clutter.

[duffymahoney]

Thanks for the feedback! I was never going to cut in to the Vx. My intention was to sandwich a plate to the bottom of the Vx, and drill a 2" hole through the Vx to affix the actuator. I had the design all done... in my head. But it didn't work.

I have also noted that the 11.2 speed was about the max of a good wave with this setup. (I have a video to corroborate) It's great to see some external validation of that. I see a lot of TAPS3 boats running up to the 12's, but I certainly don't see that positive result at those speeds. That's fine for me as the wave is pretty killer at 10.8, and the slower the boat goes, the less momentum the surfer requires (and less gas being used).

As for the tippiness - you are bang on again. It is easy to add a touch of list as needed. I also find the wave is excellent on both sides. The suck gate is truly amazing

--

I've got a couple designs in my head for a buoyant suck gate that I will build this winter. That's my biggest issue with the current design - it needs to be latched to the boat, or to a fender. That just adds risk or clutter.

Wave doesn't look as good, but for airs etc.. faster is better. Just some food for thought.

[Germaine Marine]

Ill keep saying it.... the faster you can go without losing shape, cleanliness and push the better. Its the only reason I went to the Rzx. That hull allows you to push into 13 mph range no problem without losing push/height.

If you are debating systems its definitely a tradeoff but I think if you can find a system that allows you to push into the upper echelon speed wise that has to be a huge positive, maybe the biggest. Not many boats or systems can push into that speed range and get better..... im with Duffy on wanting juice. You give me a boat I can surf at 12.5 plus that is big and clean ill show you a boat that people want 9 times out of 10.

This is at 12.8 and it had a full mph plus left before it started to hit the fan.
fullsizeoutput_fc7.jpg

[Thegerman618]

I totally agree with Tall and Elevated on the speed aspect. I am a smige shorter than Tall and I need a firm wave to air out on. 10.8/11.0 is awesome for teaching, it's big, good push, a little mushy but not terrible. When my expiernced rider buddies get out there I usually bump to 11.8, sacrifice a little height for 5'+ of pocket and gets super firm and rampy.

[bsreid]

I totally agree with the speed thing on the bigger boats. I ride over 12 on a Z3. Not sure if the Z1 will handle the speed though

[CarFanatic]

I looking for a firm wave with a lip..... my listed z3 with vx the lip is awesome.. I have yet to ride another boat that has that lip for airs. the z3 with taps 3 the lip is not good, unless your way at the back of the wave.

[JohnnieMo]

Awesome responses!!! Thanks guys.

On the speed topic. It may be that as I graduate to higher levels of surfing prowess, I may want to increase my speed. I classify myself as an early intermediate level surfer at the moment. I will keep this in mind as I move forward. A question however - are those surfing over 12MPH with TAPS3 reducing the tab deflection for higher speeds? If so, that might mean I need a smaller gate to surf at higher speeds. This is more reason to consider an adjustable suck gate.

To date, my best surfing mod is the suck gate, however the second best is the surfer mod -- losing 30lbs. I'm aiming for another 30 this off season.