Tige TouchPad Upgrade Project Thread

[IDBoating]

Thats when I noticed vent/sensor line wasnt on top of the bag. Assuming thats so that it can "sense" water level at all levels and not just full/venting level. I was getting at the fact that aftermarket bags typically always have vent right on top of the bag, so Im assuming there will need to be a change in aftermarket bags to accommodate sensor.

Actually not! The sensor works with off-the-shelf fat sacs, no special fittings required.

That lack of a vent line on the top of the sac is a Skier's Choice innovation. Instead of the traditional vent line on top, they install a special cap that contains a GoreTex-like filter (hence the little holes in the cap). This lets out air, but not water, so air cannot be trapped at the high point of the fat sac. It eliminates all hoses from the storage locker and really cleans up the appearance. We REALLY like that trick they came up with, it's the cleanest (lack of a) hose arrangement we've ever seen! And it works with any sac that has a "top" fitting (basically every sac out there), so you can "stack" more bags no problem. Just plumb them into each other. The topmost bag will get the little GoreTex plug so air will vent to the top.

Meanwhile, our sensor connects to a standard fitting at the bottom of the fat sac. So there's really no relationship between our sensor and their GoreTex vent trick, and we can't take credit for the hoseless installation. That's entirely their doing and we think they did a great job, they just happened to release that to production in the same year as they started using our ballast sensor.

[freeheel4life]

Thanks for all the information. Neat stuff you guys are doing.

Sorry for derailing the thread

[cnote]

Yes, we manufacture a variety of sensors for the marine industry. We haven't started formally advertising them yet, but have been shipping hundreds a month for over a year. All of our sensors talk natively to the CAN network on modern boats.

We presently offer:

* Two different draft sensors (exclusive to Skier's Choice, since they purchased the draft sensor patent from us)

* 3 axis inclinometer (reports X/Y/Z hull angles)

* Hose sensor (typically used to detect water in ballast hoses)

* Ballast sensor

The last three sensor types are available to everyone, and we will be actively marketing our ballast sensor this fall for MY2020 boats. We're especially proud of the ballast sensor; many companies have tried many techniques to sense ballast amounts. Folks have tried everything: Rotational inline flow sensors, pressure plates, measuring air pressure above the water in the compartment, etc. and given up because they all have maintenance problems or are expensive or both.

Until now, everyone had given up and settled for timers. But timers are a nightmare: If you've spent ANY time on anyone's forums you'll know what a PITA timers are. There are hundreds of threads arguing about resetting, recalibrating, etc. and the best you'll ever get is a rough estimate. There are just too many variables when using a timer... the pumps run different speeds based on battery charge state or if the engine is running, the flow rate changes with hull speed, obstructions in the hose or thruhulls change things, and so forth. If you have a leak somewhere the timer will still report "100%" even if your ballast is half empty! Timers just basically suck for tracking ballast.

The industry needs an accurate solution for ballast levels. With today's more powerful pumps, running the pumps past full has been popping fat sac seams, blowing fittings off the bags, breaking engine dividers, etc. We know of at least two companies that have been losing a lot of money sending out replacement fat sacs and engine dividers because of inaccurate timers.

We took a fresh approach to the problem. And it was a serious design challenge, it took far longer than we ever expected to solve all sorts of issues that nobody even knew existed. But now we have a solid ballast sensor that doesn't cost much, has no moving parts, requires no maintenance, requires no calibration, and plumbs right into existing hull designs and ballast systems. We've shipped hundreds already for MY2019 and they are getting RAVE reviews from everyone including manufacturers, dealers, and owners. It provides 0-100% indication of ballast fill level in 1% increments. It plugs right into the CAN network, and Murphy has already updated their firmware to talk to it so there's no design risks nor delays. It's non-invasive, so nothing touches the water. It works regardless of pump speed, air bubbles, hull velocity, engine on or off, etc. If you have a leak, our ballast sensor will display your percentage going down - unlike a timer! - as the water leaks out (there's actually an opportunity here for the system to report leaks and, until you fix them, automatically keep your ballast where it belongs!).

So yes, we do build the inclinometer for Skier's Choice. And soon our ballast sensors will eliminate ballast timer problems for lots of other companies, and boat owners, too! 2019 is the last model year that anyone will tolerate ballast timers....

so... it sounds like will be able to retrofit and integrate ballast sensors and inclinometer into existing boats. would love both on my '18 R23 with TT2... will these work with a software/firmware upgrade? DIY only?

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[IDBoating]

so... it sounds like will be able to retrofit and integrate ballast sensors and inclinometer into existing boats. would love both on my '18 R23 with TT2... will these work with a software/firmware upgrade? DIY only?

Technically, yes - you could install our ballast sensors and inclinometers in an existing boat. But then you'd need to update the firmware on the helm screens to understand the CAN network data and display it. Could be done but I doubt Murphy or Medallion will do it without Tige or other manufacturers prompting them, and never forget boat manufacturers are interested in selling NEW boats - not upgrading old ones that then prevent new sales. True for many industries.

That said, there are a couple of manufacturers who are starting to design in "upgradability". I can't name names but you should start to see retrofit kits become available for various features in the next 6-12 months.

Back to your question: Our ballast sensors, hose sensors, and inclinometers are really intended for OEM factory installation. DIY is possible but would require a significant degree of technical ability. Installing the sensors is easy, but then - presuming you don't have access to Murphy's source code - you'd have to also retrofit a display with a CAN network interface to receive and display the data.

Our recommendation is to nag your favorite boat manufacturer {grin} to start using our sensors and then buy one of their new boats that has them. As I said above... 2019 is the last model year that anyone has to tolerate @#$%$%'ing ballast timers!

[jlogan]

Update to jlogan's post: His panel arrived today and it was what I expected. Early units used an adhesive provided by the snapdome manufacturer that, oddly enough, seems to degrade under some conditions (!!!). When that happens, it allows the snapdomes to shift position on the PCB such that they don't contact their gold-plated pads anymore. In Production now we are applying a sheet of adhesive backed mylar over the entire switch array to lock the snapdomes into place no matter what their own adhesive might do. Today, we applied that fix to jlogan's panel, completely retested it, confirmed proper operation, and shipped it back to him the same day.

As noted above, we've seen a small number of panels exhibit this behavior. We've corrected every one at no charge. If anyone with one of our panels has problems, please contact us and we'll work through diagnostics with you on the phone. If the panel needs it, we'll apply the Production fix, plus a full electrical retest, and then ship it back to you for free. BUT PLEASE CALL FIRST!!! There's no need to do any of this unless your panel actually exhibits problems, so don't "just send in the panel"... always call first!

Thanks for your ongoing support. It's our goal with these panels to keep those Tiges on the water for a very long time!

Just an update, I received the panel (BTW super fast turn around), reinstalled it, and it works great! Thanks!

[james18]

Are these still available? Mines dead... none of the buttons are working.


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[IDBoating]

Yes, we keep them in stock. The order form can be downloaded here:

http://waketouch.com/media/TigeOrderForm.pdf

You can scan and email the order form, and use PayPal to send the funds. Once we receive both we generally ship within one business day, though we will not be shipping during the first two weeks of December. So if you want a panel soon please get your materials to us this (Thanksgiving) week.

Thanks!

[ajward]

Since the GoreTex style fitting only allows air to pass, not water, would it be safe to use it on an older boat that is not capable of employing the Ballast fill sensor and using Aerator pumps, or would the water just be pushed passed the drain pump and out even with a long loop in place?

[IDBoating]

Since the GoreTex style fitting only allows air to pass, not water, would it be safe to use it on an older boat that is not capable of employing the Ballast fill sensor and using Aerator pumps, or would the water just be pushed passed the drain pump and out even with a long loop in place?

Once the ballast compartment filled completely, the continued flow from the fill pump would likely do exactly what you said: Start pushing water through the drain pump and out the drain line. Theoretically you could put one of our hose sensors on the drain line and detect this situation (presuming the exit point for the drain hose is above the top of the ballast compartment), but you'd then need some electronics to turn off the fill pump when the sensor detected that the drain line was draining.

[ajward]

Ok, so where can I get these new Gore Tex style fittings?

[freeheel4life]

Once the ballast compartment filled completely, the continued flow from the fill pump would likely do exactly what you said: Start pushing water through the drain pump and out the drain line. Theoretically you could put one of our hose sensors on the drain line and detect this situation (presuming the exit point for the drain hose is above the top of the ballast compartment), but you'd then need some electronics to turn off the fill pump when the sensor detected that the drain line was draining.

Could a guy wire a light to indicate full from the sensor on a 12V and maybe even get nuts and have the light tied into the coil side of a relay and switched side be wired to say open a ground?? I forget and didnt look back but I seem to recall you saying they just talk on the CAN line ??

[IDBoating]

Ok, so where can I get these new Gore Tex style fittings?

I don't know where they are getting them. They might be fabricating them internally. I'll see if I can find out, but they may consider them proprietary.

[IDBoating]

Could a guy wire a light to indicate full from the sensor on a 12V and maybe even get nuts and have the light tied into the coil side of a relay and switched side be wired to say open a ground?? I forget and didnt look back but I seem to recall you saying they just talk on the CAN line ??

If you're talking about the hose sensor (not the ballast sensor, which reads 0-100% in one percent increments), theoretically you could use the signal that drives its yellow LED. But the current capacity is small, perhaps 100mA IIRC, since all it's intended to do is drive an LED. There are relays whose coils use less than that but then the LED circuit has a resistor, runs from 5V, etc. Also the entire PCB is buried within potting compound so there's no convenient way to get at the LED traces.

I suppose if there were enough interest we could create a little module that talked CAN and emitted relay control signals to do what you're suggesting. Wouldn't be difficult, just a question of enough interest in the market to justify it.

[freeheel4life]

I suppose if there were enough interest we could create a little module that talked CAN and emitted relay control signals to do what you're suggesting. Wouldn't be difficult, just a question of enough interest in the market to justify it.

^^This would be sweet but Im a nerd. Run grounds to NC of relays and have coils shutoff fill/drain on reversibles(open ground path when relay switches to NO) and it would be awesome. Im sure that theres not enough demand unless its a whole kit(pumps, module, CAN harness with resistor plugs, switch panel etc.) I would love it. Hopefully there's more interest down the line, especially if the sensors are that accurate.

Seems like if the sensors are that accurate you could also have some legit gauges tied into module that would allow ballast level display?? At least in the world of bags compared to float senders in hard tanks(compared to old Nautique and MB ballast gauges with tanks senders).

[IDBoating]

^^This would be sweet but Im a nerd. Run grounds to NC of relays and have coils shutoff fill/drain on reversibles(open ground path when relay switches to NO) and it would be awesome. Im sure that theres not enough demand unless its a whole kit(pumps, module, CAN harness with resistor plugs, switch panel etc.) I would love it.

Yes, I agree, and I admire and share your DIY attitude, but what I'm saying is that there's no real access to a signal on the sensors to do what you're suggesting. We "pot" (embed the electronics in a fully sealed epoxy) them to comply with SAE J1171 and other reasons, so there's no electrical access to the signals inside other than what is brought out on the 6 pin Deutsch-style connector... and that is CAN because that's what all the manufacturers want.

Seems like if the sensors are that accurate you could also have some legit gauges tied into module that would allow ballast level display?? At least in the world of bags compared to float senders in hard tanks(compared to old Nautique and MB ballast gauges with tanks senders).

Indeed, and that's exactly where the industry is going very soon. You already have the digital displays, you already have the CAN network, you really have everything you need except accurate ballast sensing. And now we offer that. At the moment, all of the percentage displays are estimates based on timers, but as discussed elsewhere in this thread (and countless others on every wakeboating thread out there) the timers are laughingly inaccurate and get more so as all the variables stack up. The pumps vary their flow with battery vs. alternator voltage, and with hull velocity with its resultant suction effect on the thruhulls, ad infinitum. The best timers can do is re-sync to zero when you empty the compartment. Do a few fill/drain cycles that don't go to zero and you're quickly off by tens of percent. Those digital displays imply lots of accuracy but it's just not there.

Our sensors are accurate to within a percent, and we report that info over CAN to the display. That accuracy doesn't change no matter what happens to voltage, hull velocity, or anything else. So instead of displaying a timer-based wild guess, you display our ready-to-use digital data (value is 0-100). Murphy already has their firmware talking to our sensors; you'll see this on MY2020 production boats. That will be the end of timer frustrations.

BTW, our sensors work with fat sacs, hard tanks, stacked combos... whatever you've got. No moving parts, no maintenance, and they can be recalibrated on the boat if you add or remove ballast capacity.

Hadn't thought about offering a "kit". Not sure that's really a market we want to chase. Customer support for DIY'ers can be a nightmare... some people believe this stuff is really easy, but once they buy your product and get in over their head they want you to spend hours on the phone walking them through the process - and they don't want to pay for the support because they've already paid for your product and feel like it should be included. But there's just not enough margin to cover that.

EDIT: I have a personal design philosophy that I heard summed up very well recently: "Design for minimum phone calls." I'd never heard it expressed so succinctly, but it's a very important concept. Once the customer support phone starts ringing, your business model can suffer badly.