Are These Seats Legal?

[MoneyPity]

On I/O's I highly doubt they are legal when underway due to proximity to outdrive as well as exhaust fumes. No matter how well some one holds on the wrong wave can break your grip an off you go.

[boatwakes]

Completely legal according to any and all laws. Those are seats, not the transom or pedastals but seats. The coast guard (federal authority) will designate those as seats and thus trump any state law. Master craft is taking a risk because they're a gimmick and look like crap (circa 1975 grandparents living room, but I've never liked their boats anyway...)but I'm not a retro hipster and don't need New upholstery yet....

[Bryan]

Federal designation... Hadn't thought of that angle. Wonder how hard it would be to convince the water patrol of this designation.

[chpthril]

i dont think the feds, as in USCG, has jurisdiction on inland water ways. From what ive been told, the CG only has jurisdiction in off shore water ways and lakes that cross state lines.

[boatwakes]

Federal maritime law is very cut and dry with no grey areas, either it is or it isn't so even if the lake sheriff gets a little too headstrong, it can easily be beat in court or even trial by declaration. There's a lot of stupid people on the water and it's definitely not limited to just boat owners.
As an example, had a salvage last week of a 24' shamrock that sunk at the dock, snapped the prop shaft inside the coupler. Inboard boat, was not taking on water until the bottom cleaner showed up and accidentally pulled the shaft towards the prop and past the drip less seal in the boat (tides, not pss). After the boat was righted and the leak was secured, Coast guard called and said fuel needed to be removed from the vessel in case it sunk again. This was Saturday at 9:30am while I'm nursing a hangover and sore muscles. I chuckled and said to the recently 19year old boatswain on the other line, "Cite for me the cfr that requires me (the salvor) or the owner to perform this action and I'll be there in 20 minutes. Otherwise the boat is being hauled Monday at the shipyard and we'll go from there." Silence from my uscg representative as there is no such regulation and he now knew that I already knew there was no such requirement. My long winded point being, know the law and understand it because there is no grey area. Here's the cfr regarding seats on a boat https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/176.113.
And here's rule 3, see sections n, o and p http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=Rule03 regarding coast guard jurisdiction. Also keep in mind, according to the definition of a "vessel", a leaf carrying a
piece of gum is considered a vessel and thus must be treated as such, but...

[MoneyPity]

Consider me conservative but even if these seats are legal I wouldn't have passengers sit in them at anything other than no wake speeds. I have seen them on I/O's prior to being available on inboards and consider them unsafe in rough water etc. On inboards with prop tucked under the boat the safety margin goes way up but I would still be concerned.

[IDBoating]

Here's the cfr regarding seats on a boat

My quick read of that CFR doesn't find anything about the definition of a "seat" or when one in a given location is safe to sit in. It seems focused on determining the maximum number of passengers permitted, but that doesn't mean each passenger necessarily has a dedicated seat ("length of rail" criterion) or that every seat is always defined as safe to ride in under all conditions.

I completely agree about knowing the law so you can hoist them on their own petard, and hope there is a law that covers this, but I don't think this is it.

[MoneyPity]

x2

[sandm]

those would garner a ticket here no matter the federal ruling not to mention a long inspection.

you might win the ticket, but is it worth the time to fight it? I think not.

[MoneyPity]

I wonder how much the option of the transom seats cost? Personally I would rather have a full sundeck than the seats. FourWinns provides flip up seats that are integrated into their sunpad. They are meant for sitting in at the sandbar and not as seats you would sit in when boat was moving.

x2 On not worth fighting a ticket for using those seats.

[boatwakes]

WA, there's a provision in that link describing an 18" wide seat, section (3), that's all it takes but still a cfr and some design engineer wiggled it into a bummer of an option.

[IDBoating]

Yes, and such a seat may increment the allowed passenger count, but there's nothing in there that says when such a seat is safe or legal to sit in. It's silent on that question. WHEN a seat may be used must be addressed by a separate law, if it's addressed at all. If the law is silent on the question, then by definition it's legal to use anytime.

A fishing seat, on the top of a pole in the bow of a flat bottom fishing boat, is probably also technically a "seat" but I bet the local constabulary would have something to say if you were sitting in it at 60MPH. There's a difference between counting it as a seat, and saying it's OK to use at speed.

[MoneyPity]

Yes, and such a seat may increment the allowed passenger count, but there's nothing in there that says when such a seat is safe or legal to sit in. It's silent on that question. WHEN a seat may be used must be addressed by a separate law, if it's addressed at all. If the law is silent on the question, then by definition it's legal to use anytime.

A fishing seat, on the top of a pole in the bow of a flat bottom fishing boat, is probably also technically a "seat" but I bet the local constabulary would have something to say if you were sitting in it at 60MPH. There's a difference between counting it as a seat, and saying it's OK to use at speed.

x2

Looking at the position of these seats raises some concerns. What happens if there is tow rope snap back. These seats definitely would be in the path. Second is carbon monoxide at low speeds. It is bad enough on rear bench seats on warm humid days let alone sitting just in front of exhaust.They do provide hand holds for passengers but in rough water with passengers getting bounce these handholds and swim platform will tend to be wet. They may be legal now but with concerns about safety everywhere will a the law be amended?

[boatwakes]

I'm not going to beat this too hard but the cfr refers to fixed seating. Pedestal seats are not fixed seating so it's not relevant. Legal fixed seating criterion for vessels can be reviewed here http://cfr.regstoday.com/46cfr177.aspx#46_CFR_177p820. Obviously this has promoted discussion and I'm aware that parts of the law are vague and and interpreted differently by different people, including lakeside law enforcement but to answer the original thread question, according to the law, these seats are legal.

[Stingreye]

I'm not going to beat this too hard but the cfr refers to fixed seating. Pedestal seats are not fixed seating so it's not relevant. Legal fixed seating criterion for vessels can be reviewed here http://cfr.regstoday.com/46cfr177.aspx#46_CFR_177p820. Obviously this has promoted discussion and I'm aware that parts of the law are vague and and interpreted differently by different people, including lakeside law enforcement but to answer the original thread question, according to the law, these seats are legal.

I think its clear and undeniable that these seats clearly meet option C's requirement:
"(c) Installation of seats must provide for ready escape."