2015 Tige Z3 - Massive Torque? Better prop?

[ragboy]

OK, so I was out on Saturday at the hyperlite demo and I got a chance to check RPMs at various speeds. Elevation is at 2300 ft at rollins lake, where I normally run at 800 feet. I didn't notice any difference. Haven't checked gas yet.

This is RJ surfing on goofy side, and you can see 11.8 MPH, which is definitely on the faster side, and the RPM is not even 3100. Picture taken when everything was stable, so accurate. Weighting is with new larger sacs, probably ~3500 lbs or so of water, and then 1000 or so in people.

Photo-2015-05-16-16-58-06_7565 by wake9, on Flickr

Here is 11.4, same weight.

Photo-2015-05-16-18-03-10_7583 by wake9, on Flickr

So then I dumped ballast and did my normal HEAD HOME speed, just chilling, not to far to go. About 3100 RPM and just under 20MPH.

Photo-2015-05-16-18-26-35_7585 by wake9, on Flickr

Then I went for what I would consider a good cruise across the lake, close to 25mph. This is that speed that felt like everyone is chilling in the boat, and no one is holding on to their hat, you know what I mean.

Photo-2015-05-16-18-27-14_7586 by wake9, on Flickr

Its not really broken in yet, so I didn't want to go WOT, but I did get it up to close to 35MPH and it felt like I had a few MPH left, I bet top speed is around 37-40.

Those are very comfortable speeds and so far I have not sensed even minuscule slippage or cavitation with this prop even when fully weighted and at higher speeds. We haven't tried surfing yet at 13 mph, but it feels super solid and much better than the 1235.

I gotta think that the Indmar 400, with the extra torque is playing a strong role in this. It reminds me of my F150 Ecoboost where I am towing uphill and it doesn't downshift, it just has buttloads of torque. The 400 motor just seems to never be working hard.

The other thing that is really interesting to me is how the boat is handling at low speeds, the more I drive it, the more I notice how much different it is. I gotta think this is all due to the prop, but could the torque of the motor have an impact on this as well?

As I said before, manipulating the boat around the dock is so much easier and positive, and there is never a need to burp the throttle forward to get the boat to turn. I just go into gear forward and it just turns, positively. I noticed something new, though. I normally have to sit in the ballast boy seat when surfing for obvious reasons. With this boat there is plenty of push so that I sat all day in the observers seat when surfing regular and I drove when going goofy. I have a brain block when turning the boat around after dropping the surfer. It is the proper thing to do to pull throttle up and let the boat naturally turn to the high side and let the waves pass you sideways with your high side facing the wave. I don't know if it is because I have ridden a motorcycle all my life or I am just mentally challenged, I ALWAYS turn to the lean without thinking, I can't help it. When I did this on the previous Z3, I would turn towards the lean and put in gear, and I would have to burp or wait a bit for the boat to turn because I am fighting the natural tendancy of the boat to turn toward the high side. This drives my son nuts, and now he is even more beside himself, because this boat doesn't care which way you turn. If I drop the throttle and then turn to the right (surfing goofy) and put in gear, it just instantly goes right.

I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, and I am not saying it makes the boat better or anything, but its a VERY noticeable difference and it is tantalizing my curious brain. ;-)

I would love to see the torque curve of the Indmar 400 vs the PCM 409. I am guessing the Indmar must have all of its torque down at the lower end where you want it, because the 409 says it has 492 ft lbs of torque, and it sure doesn't feel that way.

[River Runner]

OK, so I was out on Saturday at the hyperlite demo and I got a chance to check RPMs at various speeds. Elevation is at 2300 ft at rollins lake, where I normally run at 800 feet. I didn't notice any difference. Haven't checked gas yet.

This is RJ surfing on goofy side, and you can see 11.8 MPH, which is definitely on the faster side, and the RPM is not even 3100. Picture taken when everything was stable, so accurate. Weighting is with new larger sacs, probably ~3500 lbs or so of water, and then 1000 or so in people.

Photo-2015-05-16-16-58-06_7565 by wake9, on Flickr

Here is 11.4, same weight.

Photo-2015-05-16-18-03-10_7583 by wake9, on Flickr

So then I dumped ballast and did my normal HEAD HOME speed, just chilling, not to far to go. About 3100 RPM and just under 20MPH.

Photo-2015-05-16-18-26-35_7585 by wake9, on Flickr

Then I went for what I would consider a good cruise across the lake, close to 25mph. This is that speed that felt like everyone is chilling in the boat, and no one is holding on to their hat, you know what I mean.

Photo-2015-05-16-18-27-14_7586 by wake9, on Flickr

Its not really broken in yet, so I didn't want to go WOT, but I did get it up to close to 35MPH and it felt like I had a few MPH left, I bet top speed is around 37-40.

Those are very comfortable speeds and so far I have not sensed even minuscule slippage or cavitation with this prop even when fully weighted and at higher speeds. We haven't tried surfing yet at 13 mph, but it feels super solid and much better than the 1235.

I gotta think that the Indmar 400, with the extra torque is playing a strong role in this. It reminds me of my F150 Ecoboost where I am towing uphill and it doesn't downshift, it just has buttloads of torque. The 400 motor just seems to never be working hard.

The other thing that is really interesting to me is how the boat is handling at low speeds, the more I drive it, the more I notice how much different it is. I gotta think this is all due to the prop, but could the torque of the motor have an impact on this as well?

As I said before, manipulating the boat around the dock is so much easier and positive, and there is never a need to burp the throttle forward to get the boat to turn. I just go into gear forward and it just turns, positively. I noticed something new, though. I normally have to sit in the ballast boy seat when surfing for obvious reasons. With this boat there is plenty of push so that I sat all day in the observers seat when surfing regular and I drove when going goofy. I have a brain block when turning the boat around after dropping the surfer. It is the proper thing to do to pull throttle up and let the boat naturally turn to the high side and let the waves pass you sideways with your high side facing the wave. I don't know if it is because I have ridden a motorcycle all my life or I am just mentally challenged, I ALWAYS turn to the lean without thinking, I can't help it. When I did this on the previous Z3, I would turn towards the lean and put in gear, and I would have to burp or wait a bit for the boat to turn because I am fighting the natural tendancy of the boat to turn toward the high side. This drives my son nuts, and now he is even more beside himself, because this boat doesn't care which way you turn. If I drop the throttle and then turn to the right (surfing goofy) and put in gear, it just instantly goes right.

I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, and I am not saying it makes the boat better or anything, but its a VERY noticeable difference and it is tantalizing my curious brain. ;-)

I would love to see the torque curve of the Indmar 400 vs the PCM 409. I am guessing the Indmar must have all of its torque down at the lower end where you want it, because the 409 says it has 492 ft lbs of torque, and it sure doesn't feel that way.

409 does have better torque....

Can't find the specs.....but if it's at high rpm.....doesn't help wake surfers much.

I suspect just a better prop and better low end performance as you have found.

Which is what we want....our boats aren't built for speed....they have a purpose.

[ragboy]

PCM 409 says 492 ft lbs of torque. If that is accurate, that just doesn't seem right, that it has 92 ft/lbs of torque more than the raptor 400 at 404 ft/lbs. The raptor is said to have all of its torque between 2500 and 3000, but I have no idea about the PCM.

RJ and I have put many hours driving the 409, and now 12 on this and its not even broken in, and it feels at least as punchy with the low end grunt, but it also feels like its working less at those RPMs. I guess I would have to put on a 1235 on the new Z3 to really compare apples to apples.

[Tomp]

I may try my 1235 this weekend, I agree the large diameter lower pitch 15/12 is awesome at low speeds but the RPM,s are high if your going to use it for other water sports or just cruising.


I am waiting on a 2247 that I thought would be perfect, the 2014 never felt over propped with the 1235 on it, it planned out with a full load and still hit 40mph on the speedo.

Funny how the standard propeller last year 537 was a speed prop in comparison, 45mph total opposite of the 34mph propeller on the 2015

[Booms]

I am pretty sure you get a choice of Props when ordering a boat. My dealer asked me what the main purpose was going to be. I told him Surfing and he ordered the correct prop.

[Stingreye]

PCM 409 says 492 ft lbs of torque. If that is accurate, that just doesn't seem right, that it has 92 ft/lbs of torque more than the raptor 400 at 404 ft/lbs. The raptor is said to have all of its torque between 2500 and 3000, but I have no idea about the PCM.

RJ and I have put many hours driving the 409, and now 12 on this and its not even broken in, and it feels at least as punchy with the low end grunt, but it also feels like its working less at those RPMs. I guess I would have to put on a 1235 on the new Z3 to really compare apples to apples.

I think PCM might be "reaching" to get the 492 lbs of torque.


The crate GM 6L (409) is 400 lbs of torque. Getting 25% more from bolt ons would be impressive.
http://gmpowertrain.com/2013_pdf/FHR...ine_010713.pdf
Check out page 4's torque curve.

Even the GM LS3 which I think is similar to the Raptor in displacement is only 425 lbs
http://gmpowertrain.com/2013_pdf/FHR...ine_010713.pdf

[dilpickle]

PCM 409 says 492 ft lbs of torque. If that is accurate, that just doesn't seem right, that it has 92 ft/lbs of torque more than the raptor 400 at 404 ft/lbs. The raptor is said to have all of its torque between 2500 and 3000, but I have no idea about the PCM.

RJ and I have put many hours driving the 409, and now 12 on this and its not even broken in, and it feels at least as punchy with the low end grunt, but it also feels like its working less at those RPMs. I guess I would have to put on a 1235 on the new Z3 to really compare apples to apples.

I would love to see someone do a direct comparison between these two with the identical props. Having driven both motors in their respective trucks, the difference is not nearly as perceivable as most are describing.

The difference between a 14.25" pitch prop & a 12" pitch would be roughly the same difference as going from 3.42 or 3.55 gears in your truck to 4.10s. You will see much better pulling ability but at the expense of speed. I believe you will also notice the loss of top end as the redline on the raptor is 300 RPM lower than the L96/LS3 engine.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't think anyone has done back to back testing where everything else is equal.

[DrTerry]

1235 is a way better prop , we found a huge diff on our Z3

[007]

\Its not really broken in yet, so I didn't want to go WOT, but I did get it up to close to 35MPH and it felt like I had a few MPH left, I bet top speed is around 37-40.

ragboy, you are look 38mph max top end with your setup. I've run it up a couple of times, that is all she has on the top in with this prop and motor combo.

As somebody new to inboards, nobody ever told me to turn back to the rider with the wave hitting the high side. Also a motorcycle guy, the lowside seems more natural as you say. I suppose taking the wave on the highside keeps you from taking rollers over the bow, but doesn't the boat roll more that way if you take a big roller to midship while making the turn?

[ragboy]

@007 yes, 38 sounds about what I would have got if I went WOT, and that is just fine with me, I know some want to go 45, but I want it to surf amazing and cruise well, and that is what I got. I rarely go over 25.

It is VERY natural to me to turn into the lean, but next time you down a rider just pull up the throttle WITHOUT turning in any direction, keep the wheel still. You will notice the boat naturally starts to turn toward the high side. Also, if you pull up and turn to the high side and then pause when you are 90 degrees from the direction you were going, the big rollers will hit you on the high side and roll right by. This is the safest way to return to the rider that I have found. Then the rollers go by and you give it gas and do a figure 8, or bring the back of the boat to the rider.

[r2d2]

Has anyone tried the raptor prop on the 2014 z3 yet?

[dom w. forte]

I too would like to see an apples to apples comparison but with the raptor prop on the 409 not the other way , the 409 will have more upper RPM because it has a shorter stroke , Ford is 3.74 to the GM 3.62 , but that being said there is no acurate way to do apples to apples because each engine has a different torque curve , the Ford has a more liniear torque and developes it at lower rpm this is the same reason you cant do apples to apples on trucks either , both manufacturers spec there trucks and gearing for optimun pulling power , emmisions and fuel economy, thats why when comparisons are done it shouldnt be based on gearing , but motor to motor , tow capacity, acceleration times and fuel economy on a same coarse, same conditions , one might be quicker to 60mph, but not get the fuel mileage , what gets me is when each manufacturer claims best fuel economy, if they claime that it should be compaired with how much pay load that would be apples to apples , you can build an econ truck that doesnt have as much pulling capacity.

[kx250frider617]

can the 2315 fit on the tige's? I now have my axis a22 with LS3. I usually run the 1235 prop but have tried the 2315. I usually run about 4250lbs of water weight, plus wedge, and about 4-6 people in the boat. The 1235 will pull the weight up but takes awhile, the 2315 will get to speed in half that time. At 3500rpm unweighted, the 1235 cruises at 27mph, 2315 25mph.

The 2315 is THE prop to have on malibu and axis. If I had the extra money the 2315 would be sitting on my boat. It's worth a try if it even fits.