Dodge announces a diesel half-ton...

[chpthril]

What yur gaining is the ability of the backhoe or scoop to work under varying loads, with little impact on the engines RPM. It input in to the pump is pretty constant. Think of a push mower running over a clump of thick tall grass. motor stalls because there is no power transmission in between the blade and motor.

Audio amp, same principal. Its a multiplier with varying degrees of efficiency. They dont generate power, just convert it from another energy source.

[Ewok]

Can you please show me a light duty gas truck and that produces 850ft lbs from the factory?

850 ft lbs from the factory is not light duty.

[chpthril]

Can you please show me a light duty gas truck and that produces 850ft lbs from the factory?

Show me a light duty diesel that does.

[IDBoating]

What yur gaining is the ability of the backhoe or scoop to work under varying loads, with little impact on the engines RPM.

You're describing a "buffer". And I agree, the combination of the hydraulic pump and its pressure relief valves does buffer the engine from the varying loads.

An audio amp is different. It really IS a "multiplier" because it permits a small signal to control a larger one, and introduces new power into the system. If you're looking for a "multiplier" in a hydraulic system, it would be the control valve: A little effort on the part of the operator to push a lever controls a much larger amount of hydraulic power, just as the small audio signal going into the audio amp proportionally controls the much larger speaker signal coming out. (Fun fact: In the early days vacuum tubes were called "valves" due to this analogy.)

But back on topic: Just because there is a conversion from rotational (PTO) energy to hydraulic energy via the hydraulic pump does not magically introduce new energy into the system. That's a conversion, not an amplification or multiplication. All of the energy comes from the engine; energy is conserved within the system. And so we're back to the interesting question of why a 20K pound machine requires only 1/4 the horsepower of a ~7600 pound pickup.

[Wickedcummins]

850 ft lbs from the factory is not light duty.

but it is.. 2500 3500 is light duty.. heavy duty trucks are 4500 5500.. Just sayin..1500s might as well be caravans Reading into **** makes me laugh.. Fawk show me any GAS powered 3/4 ton truck with any where near 850ft lbs.. Beats the horse beats the horse.. Gas powered truck is just retarded and makes no sense to own.. Even more so Here in Colorado..

[ragboy]

I have been driving all over the country for the endless wave tour. Sometimes towing the Z3, sometimes not. Been through Washington, Oregon, California, Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Wyoming, Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas. Diesel has been considerably more all over, sometimes as much as 85 cents to a dollar.

I now have 60k miles on my 2012 F150 with Ecoboost and I love the thing. I have the 4x4 with 373 gearing and tow package (brake controller, etc). I get 20-22 on hwy with only people, 18-20 fully loaded with equipment for events without towing, and 9-12 when towing the Z3 AND all of that equipment. My routes always start going over the donner pass and come home that way, I live in the sierra nevada. I have never felt like I needed more power, it rarely downshifts and has so much low end torque it just powers through everything. I put the cheapest octane gas in it, and run chevron every month or so, but usually go where its cheap.

When I am done with this one, I have thought about the bigger diesel F250 or 350. Tony Fussel has a real nice one with 6.7 diesel, I think its a F250. But in the end, I will probably get another one just like this because its the best tow vehicle and all around town vehicle I have ever had.

We have towed thousands of miles with our 24Ve, Z3, and an RZ4. Also a 27ft travel trailer. I almost bought diesel, til I tried this truck. Just food for thought, its really a great motor and truck.






IMG_1096 by wake9, on Flickr

[dom w. forte]

True. And don't forget some of the other advantages:

1) Their engines (and usually entire drivetrain) last a lot longer. My Cummins with ~80K miles is just getting broken in.

2) They retain far more resale value. Though this isn't really a consideration for me since I usually buy vehicles new, maintain them well, and drive them until end of life. With this Cummins "end of life" may be a couple of decades!

My truck will be about ten years old when my son gets his driver's license. I figure it's the ideal first vehicle for a teenager: big enough to go OVER most accidents, and keep him and his friends safer than if they were in an econobox. Plus, with our snow, he can recover his friends when their econoboxes slide into the ditch!

Whats your definition of lasting longer , Ive never had a gas engine that I tow with go less then 400,000 miles and thats without ever pulling it apart and no oil consumption.

[dom w. forte]

The stroke dictates torque for the most part , to many look at cubic inches of a motor and dont look at how that was derived, to make what HP and torque, take a 427 and 428 one cubic inch difference , 427 is 4.230 bore by 3.78 stroke and produced as high as 1200HP in drag racing, ut only about 350 t0 370 in torque, the 428 is 4.130 bore by 3.98 stroke and produced about 700Hp and 440 to 450 torque, the 427 was used primarely for high RPM racing and the 428 was used primarely for drag racing and large car and truck aplication , the same is true with diesel engines , normally they have very large stroke and turn very low rpm because of the crankshaft size, as to WA . being a manual Trans, in most cases it will give better fuel economy but less pulling power then an automatic, the torque converter increases the performance to the wheels and with the lock up feature increase fuel economy so thats why I said in most cases, todays automatics with multible gears and computor controls rival the manaual.

[IDBoating]

todays automatics with multible gears and computor controls rival the manaual.

...in which case my earlier calculations apply to automatics too! Great news for those who prefer automatics!

[Timmy!]

Mercedes doesn't even make a manual anymore. It's a shame because there's nothing more gratifying that a full throttle run rowing through the gears! The DSG transmission in my VW is pretty boring, can't even feel the car shift and honestly have no idea that it shifted except for the fact that the rpm's changed. Now the auto in my Corvette is a different story, hammer down and counter steer on the 1-2 shift as the back tires fight for traction. 2-3, 3-4 aren't as fun. Wicked's truck has to be a handful on the shifts, can't imagine having 2,000 lb ft or whatever he has and trying to hang on when it shifts.

[IDBoating]

Mercedes doesn't even make a manual anymore.

Maybe not for cars, but the manual in my truck is a Damlier-Benz G56 originally intended for medium-duty trucks.

can't even feel the car shift and honestly have no idea that it shifted except for the fact that the rpm's changed.

Theoretically that's exactly what you want. The best transmission would be one with a continuously variable ratio.

[Wickedcummins]

I have built too many cummins tunes to count.. My old truck whom a friend bought from me dynoed 1,438whp and 2,366 ft lbs of torque and he is getting 16-19 mph towing his 16,000lbs trailer and skid steer. My current truck dynoed 1,055hp and 2,102 ft lbs and is getting 19-19.5 towing my boat. Unloaded is getting about 23mph and I dont turn these trucks down. They run the same tunes they where dynoed on. I can take a bone stock Diesel Write a tune and gain upwards of 300HP MORE than stock.. Can any of you Gas preachers do that ? =)

[Ewok]

I have built too many cummins tunes to count.. My old truck whom a friend bought from me dynoed 1,438whp and 2,366 ft lbs of torque and he is getting 16-19 mph towing his 16,000lbs trailer and skid steer. My current truck dynoed 1,055hp and 2,102 ft lbs and is getting 19-19.5 towing my boat. Unloaded is getting about 23mph and I dont turn these trucks down. They run the same tunes they where dynoed on. I can take a bone stock Diesel Write a tune and gain upwards of 300HP MORE than stock.. Can any of you Gas preachers do that ? =)

I don't NEED to, I don't tow 16,000 lb trailers, I tow a 6,400 lb boat and when I'm not towing the boat the wife drives the kids to school and dance lessons and soccer practice and the grocery store. I'm impressed that you can get that much power out of your trucks but the vast majority of boat owners on this site have no need for that much towing capacity and I don't measure my worth based on how much horse power or gas milage my tow vehicle has. It does what I need and want it to do and I'm happy with that, can we agree not everyone needs to tow with a diesel and there are many other options besides 3500 trucks for towing our little boats?

[chpthril]

I have built too many cummins tunes to count.. My old truck whom a friend bought from me dynoed 1,438whp and 2,366 ft lbs of torque and he is getting 16-19 mph towing his 16,000lbs trailer and skid steer. My current truck dynoed 1,055hp and 2,102 ft lbs and is getting 19-19.5 towing my boat. Unloaded is getting about 23mph and I dont turn these trucks down. They run the same tunes they where dynoed on. I can take a bone stock Diesel Write a tune and gain upwards of 300HP MORE than stock.. Can any of you Gas preachers do that ? =)

Well, if the stock diesels are soooo good, why do you need to do what you do just to tow a little boat? Is the stock 850 lbs not enough, cause my 275 lb 4.2 I-6 has no trouble towing. Driver maybe?

[IDBoating]

I have built too many cummins tunes to count. Can any of you Gas preachers do that ?

You're talking about radical changes to optimize for power. Very impressive, but a different discussion than what this thread was originally about. I don't think there's any question that a diesel can be tuned for more power than a gasoline engine, but very few here are looking for that. Most are just wanting to tow their boats and occasionally haul something.

My only (polite) disagreement here has been that the cost of diesel fuel outweighs the increased fuel economy. I've shown that's not true using numbers provided by others. However, as noted by ChpThril a diesel does require a larger upfront outlay of cash to achieve the long term benefits. For some it's worth it, for others not. YMMV - literally!

My question here has been the strange horsepower rating difference between different literature for the same vehicle. After some enthusiastic and educational discussions about powertrains and hydraulics, I'm still wondering why there's a 10:1 difference. But it's just a question.

Let's keep this thread civil. It's not whether gasoline or diesel is outright better - each has its place and new technology changes the game every day (see RagBoy's comments about his EcoBoost). Let's have spirited discussions but keep things polite and respectful.

Thanks!