rz2 vs. z3

[neildorin]

I think it boils down to a matter of preference, not necessarily performance. I have a hard time believing that Tige put a "ton more" of R&D into the Z3 hull, over an above the hull of the RZ series. The fundamental shape and configuration of the hull isn't significantly different. Saying that Tige put a "ton more" of R&D into the Z3 would be the equivalent of saying that Tige and Centurion designed their hulls years ago for maximum surf wake. Fact is, this happened by accident, and that is not a poke at either company. Trying to determine which is better, the Z3 or the RZ2, is like trying to determine which surfboard is "best".

You're absolutely right about it happening by accident on every hull UNTIL the Z3. The Z3 was a result of Tige realizing they'd gotten lucky on the previous hull and saying, "lucky isn't gonna gut it anymore, let's make this the best wake/surf hull we've ever made, ON PURPOSE". Tige took what was good about the RX2/4 already and decided to improve on it...

Ask Ragboy about the Z3. He and RJ were one of several people who were consulted on the prototype hull design and submitted some suggestions for modification (like the chine removal IIRC). Also, the Z3 prototype spent a good deal of time in the hands of Erik Ruck and Adam Errington to evaluate and improve on the wakeboard wake.

The story as I've heard it is that the prototype Z3 hull was already fantastic, but Tige chose to actually listen to input from some experts and make modifications that made a huge difference.

The last RZ2 I rode behind was a few years ago, and while it was a vast improvement over our old 21V RE, it still had the same issue that many love to complain about with Tige wakeboard wakes. Tige has always had a stiffer, harder and less forgiving wake than most of the competition (MC, Bu, Supra, Axis, etc.)

After riding our new Z3, I was sold the first time I felt the wake under the board. It still has the firmness and predictability I had grown to love about the older Tige wakes, but it also had a more "rampy" feel, less like a kicker with a lip. That made it feel so much smoother hitting the wake, and landing in the transition was effortless even though I was popping much higher in the air with the same effort on a cut.

The other big difference I noticed is the cleanliness and width of the wake. On our old 21V RE and previous RZ boats I'd ridden, it could be a bit tricky, depending on how they were weighted, to get a clean lip at all speeds and long rope lengths. I would often be forced to ride at 24-25mph @ 75-80ft just to get a clean wake with no lip or wash. While that situation isn't bad for someone more experienced like me, it's rough on beginners who don't feel comfortable at 21+mph and are having trouble learning wake to wake jumps because the lippy wake kicks them too much. Also, 75-80ft of line on a wide wake like the 21V RE means you gotta cut pretty hard just to clear both wakes, especially toeside.

On the Z3, I took a wild guess on my first run and set the Tige You to 23.5mph, full ballast, Taps @6 and a 70ft line. This was just to get a feel for things. After landing 8 feet into the flats on the second cut I quickly realized that the setup I was used to from the 21V RE was going to have to change...

I ended up at 24mph with 80ft of line and I was still clearing both wakes without having to try hardly at all. If the water hadn't been so darn cold and I hadn't gashed my ankle on my board before getting in I'd have a better report, but that will have to wait until next weekend when we'll be at the lake again, with hopefully MUCH warmer water. I'll be bringing my new HD camcorder so there will be video as well as better pictures.

Here's some (rather large) pictures as evidence:

This is my girlfriend behind the Z3 with no ballast and 4 adults in the boat


The moment I could "feel" how much softer and smoother the wake was


Here's me with full ballast at 70ft before we added extra line


A little blurry but you get the picture


Notice how there's not even a hint of whitewash on the approach wake. (the other wake should always have a bit since the rider is pulling that side of the boat up on approach)


And for good measure here's my 57 year old father


Not terribly impressive riding I'm afraid due to the fact that it was our first day on the water this year and the 50 degree water limited us mostly to shivering lol.

Regardless, while the RZ2 is no doubt a fantastic boat and makes a great wakesurf and wakeboard wake it would be hard to deny that the Z3, with at least 4 years more research and effort than the RZ series simply improves on what the RZs were already doing well.

[neildorin]

Go see the dealer in Kalispell. They're good people, we've gotten parts from them before.

If you really want to try a Z3, we'll be in Idaho at Lake Pend O'Reille all summer and I'm sure you could arrange to stop by for a ride. Not that terribly far from Helena.

[Coop]

I don't understand your question? The 2012 RZ2 and Z3 both have bow coolers.

One thing I noticed about the bow cooler on the Z3 is that it extends back a lot further than the RZ2. I think the RZ2 cooler is where the old optional bow cushion was, while the Z3 cooler basically comes all the way back to the beginning of the walk-through/dash. It seems like this would make it more awkward to get to the bow (you have to crawl through the walk-through), but I've only been on it in a dealership, not the water.

Also, when I saw it at the dealer, I wasn't a fan of the flip-up windscreen in the bow. It seemed a little "gimmicky", and the first time I went to the bow, I banged my knee on the hinge. I could see that happening a lot. I don't know if this is an option, but if it is, and unless you'd use it a lot, I wouldn't want it.

I've seen a Z3 in person lined up next to an RZ2 and the Z3 is a bit bigger.

The smaller boat will be easier to trailer and find a place to store it, but if you'll be using it on big water you'll want the bigger boat.

Although the specs for the Z3 say it's 23' long, I've been told it's actually 23' 9". (I think the early specs on the Tige website actually said 23' 9" for a while.) I haven't measured to confirm the actual length (and maybe it changed during the redesigns), but for people with storage limitations, that could be a big issue.

Of course, all of this pales in comparison to the importance of the performance/wake. I haven't been in a Z3 on the water, but I've heard nothing but great reviews on that.

[neildorin]

The Z3 is 23'

the specs that say 23''8/9" are including the TAPS plate which really doesn't count.

The hinge in the bow has been removed now an replaced with a re-inforced vinyl "hinge". That was one thing we saw in the showroom that we were a bit freaked out by. The early versions had a metal hinge to lift the center cusion and pull the flip up plexiglass insert out. It was hard on the feet/knees and rather painful to step on. We were pleasantly surprised when our boat showed up without the metal hinge!

Getting into the bow is not hard at all and the extra length of the cooler makes for a great rearward facing seat that's toasty warm in cold weather with the heater on and the plexi insert installed/windshield closed!

We're on the biggest part of a BIG lake so the extra 2 feet over our old 21V RE makes a HUGE difference. We took it out the first day in pretty rough water to get some hours on the engine and it was a really smooth ride compared to the old boat.

[Coop]

Interesting about the measurements. Is that how all Tige boats are measured? That would seem to make sense for length limits on lakes, because they are usually concerned about rub rail to rub rail measurements. However, for someone trying to decide if it'll fit in their storage space, they'll want to know total length, including the TAPS plate.

Good to hear about the vinyl hinge.

[ragboy]

I am about to head onto the lake to do a demo from some folks that flew in, and I will answer the R&D question then, but wanted to answer the length.

I went right from the RZ4 to the Z3, and then we still own the 24Ve, and on one day during the West Coast Open was back and forth between the 24Ve and the Z3. The Z3 for all intents and purposes is a 24 foot boat IMHO. The 24Ve cockpit feels a little bigger, but then the bow on the Z3 is roomier. We could never go out with the number of people we do in the RZ2 without feeling cramped.

More on the R&D when I get home. I have the sleepless nights and plain ticket receipts to prove it!

[majestic]

After 30 hours in the Z3 at the West Coast Open and many hours in the RZ2 if you have the room for a boat as big as the Z3, it fits your budget, you have the vehicle to pull it I would recommend it over the RZ. That boat drives better loaded and unloaded the center walkthrough is a huge plus on the Z3 and the surf wake is better with less list. Both great boats however but for me it would be the Z3.

[Surf406]

thanks to everyone

well back from surfing and back to work the wife says the z3 iz what wer going with so im gonna not argue that for my sake ,i spoke to a friend in helena and i think i got him talked into bringing the z3 out for a rip so now the hard part is going to be scheduling the appt, to ride it, ill keep you guys posted thanks again everyone.

[ragboy]

Its funny, but this year we helped out at a couple of the boat shows and saw first hand how so many times a wife can sway a decision, and many times towards malibu. When we bought our first inboard, it was similar, my wife loved the malibu interior. I heard that a lot at the boat shows. But the new Tige interiors seem to really be making that not such and issue, and the Z3 is an example of a boat that seems to have the same effect, women seem to gravitate to that interior and layout. My wife loves ours, as do I.

I have been out for 4 days taking out 2 different families surfing, previously scheduled hosting dates, and I am wiped which is why I didn't get back to this earlier. I apologize. Great time , though. One lady has been trying to wakesurf for 3 years and just can't freeride, we had her riding ropeless within 15 minutes and she was SO frickin excited.

About the Z3 R&D. It is true that up to the Z3 as far as I know every surf boat has been an accident, including Tige boats. Surf boats were found by riders and then shared in the community, and some manufacturers including Tige have then marketed those capablities. When Tige was coming out with the Z3 they contacted us about testing/trying a prototype Z3. We did, it made a decent surf wake, but it wasn't up to par with the RZ2 or (modified) 24Ve IMO. Tige told us they wanted this to be the "baddest wakesurf and wakeboat" they could make, and hopefully the best in the industry. We gave them our feedback, and we decided among ourselves (RJ, Dennis and I) that we would give them as much honest information as possible to help them make a great surf boat. In other words, not just a thumbs up or thumbs down. So we gave them some elements that we considered to be crucial to a world class wakesurf boat.

1. Strong push/power at the back of the wake.
2. Great Transition, like 24Ve
3. Long usable pocket. That means flat or small curl, since a curl can grab your leg and pull you back, making the back of the wake unusable.
4. Solid, clean face. No cuts, wash, or double lips.
5. Solid clean lip to launch from.
6. Adjustability. Taps need to adjust enough to make a wake both like the RZ2, a bit steeper which many surf style riders love, including RJ, and then shallower like the 24Ve with TAPS down especially suited to skim riders.

There were other criteria for the boat like great on both sides, hidden ballast, etc, but those are already well known. The above 6 things were what we presented to Tige as what needed to be the next step. After our experience with the first prototype, we didn't hear from Tige for a while and then got a call in November. They wanted us to come down see what they had done, we were excited. We went down and they gave us a factory tour which was awesome. But here is the key to answering your question. There is a room in the factory that you don't get to walking down the middle of the factory from one end to the other. As we were going in, they asked us to stop filming, and not take any pictures, we agreed but obviously our interest was piqued. They took us into this room like a big garage or workshop and there it was. I said outloud, "That is both the ugliest and the sexiest thing I have ever seen in my life." Someone from Tige, I will leave out the name to protect the guilty, said "You just described my ex-wife." That made us all laugh pretty good. No lie, this thing was very cool. I was told I could talk/post about it, just no pics. I was looking at the outer hull of the Z3. Keep in mind when you see factory pics there are 2 hulls, the inner and outer that come together to make the foundation of the boat. Imagine just an outer hull, raw fiberglass inside, just an engine, a steering wheel and throttle, some sacs in various places and then some old wakeboard tower, def not an alpha z. This outer hull was noticeably cut up, bondoed and manipulated and then taken to the lake to test. Bondo or cut, test, rinse, repeat, hundreds of hours later and they came up with 2 more prototypes. We rode the first on a Thursday and it was great, MUCH better than the first. The transition still wasn't quite there, though. Then on Friday we went out on the last (3rd prototype we tested) and this is the hull that is in my slip, and in production. The wake was adjustable, and it was gorgeous, and it had more push than any boat RJ or Dennis had ever ridden, and they have ridden just about everything.

All that to say, it really was no accident, the Z3 was engineered to create a great wake, and I would also say that I think Tige is unleashed. They now have what I would call a "workflow" for wakesurf hull R&D. I am guessing that every hull will go through some type of process just like this. Not to mention, Tige is going to need us less and less, because they love to wakesurf, and getting better and better at it, investing in an incredible team, and will be able to figure this stuff out without wake9. Sniff.

One more thing to add. We gave them our list, but they also had a list of their own for a great wakesurf boat. They told us they wanted to make a boat that required less list/lean to make that wake. To be honest, this was not important to me. That's part of the fun right? The Z3 makes its wake with 8 degrees of list or so, so little compared to others including the 24Ve and RZ2. Now that I have been in it, I don't want to go back to the 15+ degree list. You will see what I mean when you try it. We can have people weight everywhere much easier, and you always feel safe, its amazing. RJ was on a Supreme V226 the other day and it was idle and got hit by Z3 rollers and RJ said he felt like it was going to tip over, he is not easily stirred. That deep V really rolls, its a great wakesurf boat in its own right, no doubt, but Dennis and RJ both told me the same thing. Anyway, you gotta demo a properly setup Z3 and see what I mean.

[Surf406]

shucks

thanx ragboy im def loving the z3 prob i have my dealer sold the boat tues so much for trying that one out, hopefully hes gonna order another one soon.

[talltigeguy]

I think I can see what everyone is saying about the surf wake without experiencing it myself. But I am still eager to wakeboard behind one. I know there was a great video of Ruck killing it with oodles of extra ballast, but for us mortals, I want to know that it still has its shape with less ballast and a reasonable speed.

Hopefully I can get behind one at the Lake Mead reunion.

[robert theisen]

I should be riding behind one this week. I have already surfed behind it,but still need to dial in the wake. Everyone surfs on the port side so I'm a afterthought. I'll have plenty of time this week.

[Dan and Christy]

I think I can see what everyone is saying about the surf wake without experiencing it myself. But I am still eager to wakeboard behind one. I know there was a great video of Ruck killing it with oodles of extra ballast, but for us mortals, I want to know that it still has its shape with less ballast and a reasonable speed.

Hopefully I can get behind one at the Lake Mead reunion.

Larry that would be great if we could convince a Z3 owner to come down again! I think everyone only surfed Robert's last year.