Caught that funny drivetrain sound, here's a sound clip...

[IDBoating]

If only you had a Tige dealer near you...

I do, but if I take it there and they can't make these intermittent problems occur, I'll get charged for "no problem found" labor and be no better off. (I've been through that before.) It took 30-45 minutes, on the water, before things started to misbehave yesterday... I don't know if most shops will be that patient. Heck, I almost gave up yesterday and I know the problems are there.

So I'm trying to narrow things down before I get to that point, so that I can provide very specific information on what is happening. So far we've determined that the noise is a stuffing box problem, when I earlier believed it might be the transmission or v-drive. That's significant because if it requires warranty attention it will be a Tige matter, not a PCM matter.

Same thing on the tranny problem: By checking things recommended by experts here such as Dom, hopefully I can either resolve it myself or make it much easier to explain or demonstrate this intermittent problem to the local dealer.

I have a call in to PCM this morning. I'm waiting for their callback to discuss the tranny situation and get their recommendation.

[IDBoating]

Update on stuffing box...

Tige uses the PSS "dripless" system on our boats. I got the part number and called the manufacturer, PYI in Lynnwood WA.

It turns out that for boats that go on plane, they generally recommend a version of their stuffing box that has a dedicated water port to insure the carbon ring and stainless rotor are getting water. This is because testing has shown that once the boats go on plane a vacuum develops under the hull around where the propshaft exits the hull, starving the stuffing box for water and permitting things to overheat.

Here's a quote from the manufacturer's website:

>>For high-speed vessels it is required that a water supply be plumbed to the PSS for the purpose of cooling and lubricating the seal faces (i.e.,at over approximately 12 knots of speed a vacuum is created in the stern tube and water is drawn away from the PSS resulting in a loss of cooling water that may cause the carbon to over heat).<<

However, for what they describe as "tournament inboards", it seems the manufacturers prefer the non-ported version. No idea why. So despite the fact that our boats can go on plane and exceed 12 knots, we are using the design intended for slower vessels.

The manufacturer's theory on the noise I'm hearing its two-fold. First, they believe the squeak I heard is caused by the PSS going dry. Second, they believe the ticking/grinding sound is caused by the rotating carbon ring "catching" on the stationary stainless rotor, which causes the carbon ring and bellows to twist up until the stress snaps the carbon ring free of the stainless rotor. Then the shaft comes around again, the ring catches again, lather rinse repeat.

This "catching" could be caused by the interface between the two surfaces being dry, or by damage to the stainless rotor due to overheating (because it got dry at some point), etc.

My boat lives on a lift, and it's possible for air to become trapped in the tube when the boat is lowered into the water. Their fix for that is to have you manually pull back the bellows each time the boat is launched to intentionally let the air out and some water into the hull (fun to reach that on a v-drive every day!). However, the effects of this problem generally occur immediately, not after 30-45 minutes of operation. They believe even if there is an air bubble it will work itself out after a few minutes of operation, so this isn't likely to be what is happening in this case.

Their suggestions are as follows:

1) Pull the carbon ring back from the stainless rotor by compressing the bellows, and buff the face of the stainless rotor with 600 grit wet/dry paper to eliminate any rough spots.

2) If that doesn't solve it, back off and recompress the bellows but instead of the standard 3/4 inch, use 1/2 inch instead. The idea here is if the bellows are too tightly compressed, they will prevent a film of water from getting between the two rings. This, of course, presumes there is still water up in the tube in the first place and that it hasn't been sucked out by the vacuum that develops above ~12 knots. This lower pressure will also reduce the likelihood that the rings will catch on each other.

All of this makes me wonder if ballasted boats are more susceptible to that vacuum developing under there. Our surfing speed of 10.8 MPH is ~9.8 knots, a bit under the magic value of 12. I don't know what effect a listing hull would have on vacuum development. But it's interesting that the manufacturer specifically recommends one product yet our boats have the other one.

[dom w. forte]

I understand what your saying about the shifter, but the only accurate way to check it is to remove the cable from the ball and see if the lever is going fully into reverse, I have found that when the fluid is cold that it will work as you say even if the lever isnt going in all the way, and after the fluid gets hot it bleeds off the circut, it only takes a small amount of lost travel and will be slow to engage.

[IDBoating]

I understand what your saying about the shifter, but the only accurate way to check it is to remove the cable from the ball and see if the lever is going fully into reverse, I have found that when the fluid is cold that it will work as you say even if the lever isnt going in all the way, and after the fluid gets hot it bleeds off the circut, it only takes a small amount of lost travel and will be slow to engage.

Got it. Not sure why it would have suddenly started behaving this way after 100 no-problem hours, but I will check it out per your recommendations and report back next weekend (next time I'm at the boat).

If it is NOT moving the transmission lever fully into reverse, is there a "travel" adjustment? Otherwise the cable only moves so far, and I have to trade travel into forward for travel into reverse. I don't want to trade a reverse problem for a forward one.

Thanks!

[dom w. forte]

Where the cable end unclips is a small nut that you loosen and you turn the fitting on the end either in or out to lenghten or shorten.

[IDBoating]

Where the cable end unclips is a small nut that you loosen and you turn the fitting on the end either in or out to lenghten or shorten.

Right, but that just moves the cable back and forth relative to the transmission. It doesn't change how much the cable moves.

Let's say the cable can move a total of two inches from "all the way forward" to "all the way reverse". But perhaps the transmission lever needs 2.25 inches to go from one extreme (all the way forward) to the other (all the way reverse). If it's not getting all the way into reverse, I can "move" the cable toward reverse - but I'll be stealing that same amount from forward and possibly just moving the problem around.

For example, servo arms often have multiple holes. You can change the total amount of travel by moving the linkage to a hole farther from the pivot (which gives more total travel) or closer to the pivot (which gives less total travel).

I'm thinking that if indeed the cable is misadjusted, I want to make sure it's moving the transmission lever all the way forward AND all the way reverse. That requires two adjustments: Alignment of the range of travel relative to the transmission (which is accomplished by the nut you mentioned), and total range of travel. I don't know how to do the second one. I didn't see multiple holes on the transmission lever. Is there an adjustment for it on the throttle control assembly?

Just trying to be prepared when I head out to the boat next time. Thanks!

[dom w. forte]

I agree with what your saying, but Im speculating that the cable is too far engaged in forward and just trying to get it centered, Im hopeing thats the problem, Ive had them work perfectly from the factory with them out of adjustment untill they get looser tollerences and because the cable was a little further engaged in one gear or the other it didnt apply full preasure to the clutch pack.

[IDBoating]

I agree with what your saying, but Im speculating that the cable is too far engaged in forward and just trying to get it centered, Im hopeing thats the problem, Ive had them work perfectly from the factory with them out of adjustment untill they get looser tollerences and because the cable was a little further engaged in one gear or the other it didnt apply full preasure to the clutch pack.

Got it, I understand. You can't imagine how much I hope you're right and that a simple cable adjustment takes care of the problem.

PCM called me back this morning (at 5:05am my time, they forgot about the time zones!) and we had a nice chat. They asked the obvious questions (did you check fluid levels, fluid clarity, etc.). I asked if the behavior I'm describing is something they've heard of before and he said "No" (that may just mean HE hasn't heard of it).

He then said they will probably have the local shop rip it out and ship the entire transmission back to PCM for teardown. I said I thought local shops did most of that work themselves (I have the PCM transmission service manual and it has plenty of detail). He said "No, we let them do the outside stuff like fluids. Sort of like JiffyLube. But we want to do internal stuff ourselves." I was surprised by that. Some shops might be sketchy, but I was thinking of you and your shop and our conversations. Aren't you a PCM certified shop? I'd put your knowledge and skills up against anybody at PCM!

Anyway, PCM has the problem logged against me and the serial number so the warranty process has been started, if it comes to that. Before I take it to the local dealer, I'll check out the cable alignment per your suggestion. Might be a couple of days. I'll report back.

Thanks!

[dom w. forte]

We just overhaulled a 2010 with 100hrs, but not because of a bad trans, but because the boat was beached the tide went out and they tryed to back it out , the cooling system packed with mud , took out the water pump, and reverse clutch pack, prop and shaft, all this was on the insurrance company.

[IDBoating]

We just overhaulled a 2010 with 100hrs, but not because of a bad trans, but because the boat was beached the tide went out and they tryed to back it out , the cooling system packed with mud , took out the water pump, and reverse clutch pack, prop and shaft, all this was on the insurrance company.

I can't believe people intentionally beach these boats. I see the photos and it still blows me away. And then to use the engine to back off... that's a darned expensive vacuum cleaner, sucking up garbage into your cooling circuits!

Again, I sure wish your shop was closer. If you ever get tired of that humidity....

[IDBoating]

I checked the shift cable...

I was at the lake house briefly today, dropping off some building materials (the stairs need to be redone), so I took the opportunity to check the shift cable.

Result: It's just fine in both directions. Full travel on the transmission's shift lever. Shift into reverse, then remove the cable, and you cannot move the shift lever any farther. Ditto on forward.

I also ran the shift lever through its full range by hand. It feels perfectly smooth other than the double-click of the neutral switch as you pass through neutral.

BTW, I received a second call from PCM today. They said they'll probably just ship a new transmission to get me back on the water and have mine shipped back to the factory for analysis. If they really do that, that's GREAT customer service. I'll keep updating this thread so everyone will know how it works out.

My next step will be to run one more test and see how long it takes for the transmission problem to surface. My past tests focused on what turned out to be the stuffing box problem. I need to really understand how long it takes for the transmission to start showing the problem.

[IDBoating]

Update....

I ran the test to see how long it takes for the transmission to start failing, and couldn't get it to fail. It sort of felt like it had trouble one time going into reverse, but otherwise a solid hour of 3000 RPM operation couldn't cause it. Intermittent problems are a real drag to diagnose.

However, a couple of times while driving around in forward we felt a sort of "bump". I'd almost describe it as if the engine missed on one cylinder for one spark, though I'm sure that's not what happened. My wife was driving the first time and it was noticeable enough that her head jerked around to look at me and she said "What was THAT?" So there's something going on in there.

The inability to demonstrate it on demand worries me a lot because PCM wants me to take it to their local certified shop. I know how it goes... boat owner brings it in complaining about a problem, they drop it in the water and can't duplicate it, boat is returned with "no problem found", and next season we're right back in the same place. Except now we're trying to solve it during the summer when time on the water is precious.

So, we pulled the boat off the water and took it to the dealer as requested by PCM. I removed the rear seat and the support box underneath it to make it as easy as possible for them to get at the transmission and v-drive. The service coordinator is going to contact PCM on Monday and we'll see what happens. I sure hope PCM comes through on that earlier comment to ship out a new transmission ASAP. I'll keep this thread updated.

[Ewok]

What dealer did you go to, is tobler still a tige/PCM dealer?

[IDBoating]

What dealer did you go to, is tobler still a tige/PCM dealer?

I took it to Tobler. Yes, they are still a Tige dealer and PCM certified shop. PCM's warranty manager said they've had good experiences with them, which is encouraging. So far Tobler's service coordinator has been very helpful and supportive. I'll keep everyone posted on how the situation evolves and how Tobler and PCM handle it.

I don't know if there is another PCM shop in the area now that the Mastercraft dealer is closing. If Axis uses PCM, the Hagadone marina on Cd'A would likely be certified as they are an Axis dealer.

[duffymahoney]

The centurion, moomba, mastercraft dealer is closing?