HD Rumble in the Rockies - Chevy wins

[islander033]

...I can also use my 2003 Cobra since i am currently in need a of computer for it...

I'm not sure that this^^^ would be a good example either.

I had a 06 Saleen SC that was imported from California. I bought it from a dude that did some mods on it. I didn't trust the tune on the car so I contacted some well known tuners in the US. Not one of them asked me about the altitude that I was running the car at when getting information for building a custom tune.

So were they wrong in not asking me or is it automatically taken care of?

[Timmy!]

Wouldn't Ford be all over this saying that their truck should have come from altitude for this test?

[91Terminator]

Wouldn't Ford be all over this saying that their truck should have come from altitude for this test?

It did and lost they wont say anything. that would only make things worse for them.

[91Terminator]

I'm not sure that this^^^ would be a good example either.

I had a 06 Saleen SC that was imported from California. I bought it from a dude that did some mods on it. I didn't trust the tune on the car so I contacted some well known tuners in the US. Not one of them asked me about the altitude that I was running the car at when getting information for building a custom tune.

So were they wrong in not asking me or is it automatically taken care of?

Yes it would cuz i will be buying a brand new computer from ford for a 2003 cobra. And this will prove my point. All 2003 Cobra's only came one way a 4.6L DOHC Supercharged Tremec T56 6 Speed Manual With an IRS 3:55 Gear No other options for this car done end of story. So when i call my local Ford Dealership parts department and say i got a 2003 Ford Mustang Cobra I need a New Computer, in you all's case they would just say ok its coming. But this will not happen Cuz i know for a fact there are different computers for the area in which these cars were originally shipped to in 2003. So when i call to order the New Computer He will ask me the last 8 digits of the VIN # and that will tell him what computer serial number My Car Came With Originally in 2003.

This I know 100% for a fact because i have already called once for a price on a New Computer for a 2003 Mustang Cobra, and his very next words were "i need the last 8 digits of the VIN #" So i had to call the guy i sold the car too to get the VIN # off of it so I could get a price on the computer for my car. (I have a 1991 Mustang with a 03 Cobra Drivetrain) I bought the car totaled and sold the shell to a buddy.

My parts guy said "I can not get the price and availability for you with out the VIN # because I do not know which computer you car calls for."

Good thing for me is I dont care what calibration it has because i will be re writing it anyways but i still need the computer. So i had to get him the VIN # to order a 03 Cobra Computer.

I am not saying there is 100 computers there is only one computer part # with probably 2 to 4 different Serial Numbers, and each of those 2 to 4 will have there own calibrations or software.

[islander033]

So are you saying that the tuners should have been asking me my elevation or not?

[91Terminator]

So are you saying that the tuners should have been asking me my elevation or not?

That would be up to them its there company to do what they please. I am not saying they should do anything.

Plus most all aftermarket tunes remove or discard all emissions, which is half of the software in these computers these days, everything is changed for emissions. So in higher altitudes or other parts with lower altitudes a no emissions vehicle probably wont be too noticeably different.

[dom w. forte]

My statements above were not from the consumer's side, but from the factory trained technician, working in a dealer service department, using the factory supplied Tech-II, and pulling the new flashes right off of GM's computer software. I dont remember ever seeing anything about regions.

Many of the vehicles i worked on were transplants from other areas. When a new car dealer picks and buys his new cars, they are sent to him out of the fleet of new cars already built and sitting in the manufacturers lot. The VIN's are chosen based on the options he wants, not the region he is in. These cars/trucks are already built. They do not send a guy around to re-flash a thousand cars a day based on where they are going, once a dealer buys them. Also, lots of the used cars on a dealers lot come from auction. These auction vehicles are coming from all over, and no one is reflashing them, either before they roll through the auction lane or after they are delivered to the new selling dealer.

So, i'll stand behind my statement.

If no one cares, how in the heck did we get to 7 pages about how the test was rigged, wasnt fair, bought and paid for Chevy, wrong reflash, etc, etc, etc?

Piece out!

So are you saying you never received any tsbs that required a reflash do to a drivabilty issue in your area, only tsbs that went out across the board to every gm dealer in the country, because i know here at 0 altitude and extream heat we had specific calibrations only for vehicles if a drivabilty issue occured.
I never said they would go out and reflash a new vehicle, I said if a vehicle from a fla. dealer was shipped to canada and experineced any drivabilty issue , they would update or adjust due to fuel curve difference due to climate, they change adjustments of fuel trim all the time to compensate for different air density, the new systems are much better then ever but still have to be adjusted to different areas, and as i stated why wouldnt fuel measurements in test be good bar to go by its part of the equation, if you stratigically set your fuel settings for maximum performance but go through a tank of fuel to do it is that what a consumer wants, or would here prefer addicate performance at a reasonable cost in fuel?

[KonaKing]

[IDBoating]

if you stratigically set your fuel settings for maximum performance but go through a tank of fuel to do it is that what a consumer wants, or would here prefer addicate performance at a reasonable cost in fuel?

This is the only "regional reflash" scenario that makes sense to me. I am DEFINITELY no expert in automotive systems, but I am an expert in electronics/software/firmware/systems design. Today's ECU's are more than capable of sensing, and accommodating, changes in environmental conditions. Heck, they do it all the time with naturally occurring variations in barometric pressure, humidity, temperature, etc. It should not be necessary to manually change the firmware to "help" the ECU achieve a given optimization.

But a firmware change would make perfect sense if you wanted to change the target behavior of the ECU. If you wanted better acceleration (and were willing to give up economy, for example) then the ECU's target values would need to be changed.

The critical distinction here is that the firmware isn't being changed simply because the vehicle lives in a different region. The ECU should easily be able to accommodate changes like that. But if the owner wanted different performance, a dealer might have some different parameters (aka "curves") they can use to make such an owner more satisfied.

I'd be delighted to be educated otherwise, but that would mean the ECU - and the myriad of sensors telling it virtually everything going on in and around the engine - is far less capable than I'd expect it to be.

Not arguing, just explaining my position.

[dom w. forte]

As i have said the sensing information gives the ecm all the data it could possible need but the fuel and igntion mapping is ifinite and those settings are broad, for any particular glitch , let say a lean miss at 1250rpm only a reflash can change the mapping at that spec and possible eliminate the miss without effecting the rest of the run.
I sat there at a clinic with a delphi rep with his lap top and watched as they kept changing the fuel mapping and spark advance , and could watch theoreticle hp and torque curve go up and down the scale, as well as measured fuel economy and emissions changes.
At the Hyde Park dyno testing facility in Mich. i watched them run test after test for hours of the V10 viper and how remapping changed the torque and hp curves up and down the scale , making tentative settings for production and different gear settings.
I cant explain it anymore clearly you would have to be there and see the changes and effects , the centerline of adjustments to keep the burn within the parameters of any particular program are fixed within a range of the program and that range is adjustable by changeing the program only.

[IDBoating]

Yes, I think we are saying the same thing. The sensors and ECU have all the data, but you have to choose what you want the ECU to DO with that data. Once you've told it what you want (your choice of "curves"), it can use the data that comes from the sensors to alter engine operation to keep it within those curves. If you change location/region/altitude/whatever, the ECU will be given different data by the sensors, and it will have to make some adjustments to engine operation, but it will still keep the engine operating within those curves.

Any change in curves, firmware, etc. is based on desired operation, not forced by altitude or region.

We're in perfect agreement.

[Timmy!]

Sorry, trying to catch up because I just spent a few hours working on my FORD. Brake calipers went bad at 75,000. No fault of Ford's, ice and snow got packed up in the caliper and I had to break it free this past winter and didn't realize it was leaking.

Speaking from actual experience of tuning cars, the jist of it is that the computer looks at the vacuum/boost, airflow coming in, rpm, etc and then looks for that spot in the table and adjusts to whatever that number is. Simple as that.

[TeamAllen]

No to get too far off topic here. Thanks to Timmy for bringing attention to the the truck website.
I know you brought up the article to show the superiority of the chevy's pulling ability. That is probably the most important issue to most? I have always been concerned with the braking capabilities of these trucks. I did a search with that website and found this test.

http://special-reports.pickuptrucks....1/braking.html

It's a couple of years old, but that's what came up in my search. It just shows to me, you have to take more than one aspect into consideration, when making your decisions on tow vehicles.

[bspot]

No to get too far off topic here. Thanks to Timmy for bringing attention to the the truck website.
I know you brought up the article to show the superiority of the chevy's pulling ability. That is probably the most important issue to most? I have always been concerned with the braking capabilities of these trucks. I did a search with that website and found this test.

http://special-reports.pickuptrucks....1/braking.html

It's a couple of years old, but that's what came up in my search. It just shows to me, you have to take more than one aspect into consideration, when making your decisions on tow vehicles.

Did you read "the rumble in the rockies?" Because it clearly contained a braking test when coming down the hill.

[91Terminator]

If there is no different software then how do you explain this????

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-O...ht_4589wt_1012

Computer Code HSF0

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/03-04...#ht_500wt_1182

Computer Code YDH1

You couldn't buy this car any other way then 4.6L DOHC Supercharged Tremec T56 6 Speed Manual 3:55 Rear Gear. There would be no need for different Computer Codes if all had the same software.

I'll expect to see my Ford Rules everywhere for a full week now, Thank you very much.