How do your trailer's surge brakes work?

[IDBoating]

You miss the point exactly. There is a center point that the trailer can rotate around, and the problem is that the 2 axles are about 3 feet apart. By definition, one of those axles is further from the center point of rotation and it will have to slide if you were trying to make a pure 360 degree turn with the trailer.

Only if the wheels on either side of a given axle are locked together and cannot rotate independently, right? This is the classic case of a car driving in a circle. The inner wheels rotate less than the outer ones. A solid axle causes slippage, but independently rotating wheels don't have that problem - the inner and outer wheels are free to turn as much or as little as they need to.

On powered axles, this is the reason for a differential. On passive axles (like a trailer), no differential is required as long as the wheels are independent.

Forgive me if I misunderstand your point.

[Ewok]

We turn ours by hand all the time. Thats how it gets in the garage.

What do you mean turn it by hand? You disconnect the trailer from the truck and push the trailer into the garage or you back the trailer into the garage with the truck, disconnect, and then push the tongue sideways by hand? I would think that would be slightly difficult with a single axle but pretty hard with a dual axle trailer.

[Timmy!]

Forgive me if I misunderstand your point.

Do this, have someone else back the trailer up while turning it so you can see what everyone is talking about. It doesn't defy physics but it defies what you think is going to happen and the only way you are going to understand is to see it actually happen and then you will have that AH HA! moment. Just trust everyone.

[zad0030]

What do you mean turn it by hand? You disconnect the trailer from the truck and push the trailer into the garage or you back the trailer into the garage with the truck, disconnect, and then push the tongue sideways by hand? I would think that would be slightly difficult with a single axle but pretty hard with a dual axle trailer.

The latter.

Here is a picture from back when we had out Tige.

[IDBoating]

What do you mean turn it by hand? You disconnect the trailer from the truck and push the trailer into the garage or you back the trailer into the garage with the truck, disconnect, and then push the tongue sideways by hand? I would think that would be slightly difficult with a single axle but pretty hard with a dual axle trailer.

I can only speak for myself, but on our single axle trailer it's very easy to move it around even with the boat on it. You can pivot it 360 degrees in its own length if you have a large enough area. That means the two wheels are turning in opposite directions, by the way.

I do not expect a dual axle trailer to rotate 360 degrees in its own length, because as others have noted that would indeed ask the tires to scrub off-axis a little. But if you move the trailer in an arc (sort of what 91Term was saying) it should be possible to turn it. Maybe I just need more oomph.

[Ewok]

Only if the wheels on either side of a given axle are locked together and cannot rotate independently, right? This is the classic case of a car driving in a circle. The inner wheels rotate less than the outer ones. A solid axle causes slippage, but independently rotating wheels don't have that problem - the inner and outer wheels are free to turn as much or as little as they need to.

On powered axles, this is the reason for a differential. On passive axles (like a trailer), no differential is required as long as the wheels are independent.

Forgive me if I misunderstand your point.

In order to think about it like a car, think about putting a RWD car in neutral with an open differential, now try to make it turn if the front wheels are locked from turning left and right, they can only move forward and back just like the rear wheels. even if you put a long pole out the front of the car it would be damn near impossible to move. If you shrink the wheelbase it would require less force to spin the vehicle about its axis until the front and rear axles are pulled together to the absolute minimum, a 1 axle vehicle. The converse would also be true, the farther the axles are apart from each other the more force is required to rotate the vehicle or trailer. The friction of the tires on pavement would prevent them from sliding and the more weight on the tires, the more friction and the more force would be required. You can see the tires scrubbing on the pavement when backing up and turning, one wheel looks like it is leaning into the turn and the other wheel on the same side looks like it is leaning out or away from the turn. I bet the 24Ve is much bigger and heavier than your last boat so the trailer is bigger too, the axles will be farther apart and the added weight will make it harder to push or turn by hand.

I guess if you needed to pull the tongue into the garage you could mount an anchor point inside the garage and use a come-along or use the dollies.

[Ewok]

The latter.

Here is a picture from back when we had out Tige.

Cool, that is a tight fit, did you guys park it like that every trip in/out or did you guys do that for winter storage only?

And I bet a 24Ve is a bit heavier and has a wider wheel base than a 21i

[zad0030]

Cool, that is a tight fit, did you guys park it like that every trip in/out or did you guys do that for winter storage only?

And I bet a 24Ve is a bit heavier and has a wider wheel base than a 21i

Nope, that's it's summer home. We put it in there sometimes 3 or 4 times a week.

Wheel base is probably the same. But I believe the axles sit farther back on Vdrive trailers.

[Joeprunc]

In order to think about it like a car, think about putting a RWD car in neutral with an open differential, now try to make it turn if the front wheels are locked from turning left and right, they can only move forward and back just like the rear wheels. even if you put a long pole out the front of the car it would be damn near impossible to move. If you shrink the wheelbase it would require less force to spin the vehicle about its axis until the front and rear axles are pulled together to the absolute minimum, a 1 axle vehicle. The converse would also be true, the farther the axles are apart from each other the more force is required to rotate the vehicle or trailer. The friction of the tires on pavement would prevent them from sliding and the more weight on the tires, the more friction and the more force would be required. You can see the tires scrubbing on the pavement when backing up and turning, one wheel looks like it is leaning into the turn and the other wheel on the same side looks like it is leaning out or away from the turn. I bet the 24Ve is much bigger and heavier than your last boat so the trailer is bigger too, the axles will be farther apart and the added weight will make it harder to push or turn by hand.

I guess if you needed to pull the tongue into the garage you could mount an anchor point inside the garage and use a come-along or use the dollies.

That's it. Very well written.

[IDBoating]

That's it. Very well written.

Agreed. One way I was envisioning it was to imagine those dump trailers that have 3-4 axles. They use them to haul gravel around here. HUGE capacity trailers with up to four axles. No way those are going to turn in their own length, for the reasons stated.

But also as stated, as the wheelbase gets shorter it should be easier. And that trailer is loooooong, which means lots of mechanical leverage. I'm surprised how difficult it is, but I guess it's possible it's still due to the dual axle effect.

[embo]

WABoating... don't know if you know about these but a friend down the street just bought a bigger boat and now contends with the dual axle trailer too. He boat theses:

OTC Stinger Easy Roller Wheel Dolly, 1500 Lb Capacity - 1580

dollie.jpg

He has two, one for each side of the trailer. The seem to run about $125 to $160 each. But two would be enough to move a boat around I think. You slide them on either side of the tire then pump the foot pump (looks like a black handgle), and the black parts of the dolly move closer and closer therefore lifting the tires up off the ground. Then you can move the entire boat anyway you want with out much effort.

Anyway, just thought of your question about the trailer and all when I saw my friend demo them for me.

[IDBoating]

Thanks for posting that. I had already run across these and considered buying some, but so far the "binding" hasn't needed a couple hundred dollar solution {grin}. I might end up with them yet, we'll see.

Thanks again, great idea!

[Joeprunc]

WABoating... don't know if you know about these but a friend down the street just bought a bigger boat and now contends with the dual axle trailer too. He boat theses:

OTC Stinger Easy Roller Wheel Dolly, 1500 Lb Capacity - 1580

[ATTACH]21099[/ATTACH]

He has two, one for each side of the trailer. The seem to run about $125 to $160 each. But two would be enough to move a boat around I think. You slide them on either side of the tire then pump the foot pump (looks like a black handgle), and the black parts of the dolly move closer and closer therefore lifting the tires up off the ground. Then you can move the entire boat anyway you want with out much effort.

Anyway, just thought of your question about the trailer and all when I saw my friend demo them for me.

I use to work at an AutoBody/Restoration shop and we had those for cars, especially to move the fancy ones in the showroom floor. Those dollies work great on nice concrete surfaces, but after some use on asphalt the wheels chipped and created flat spots. I would only recommend using them on smooth concrete.

[talltigeguy]

Only if the wheels on either side of a given axle are locked together and cannot rotate independently, right? This is the classic case of a car driving in a circle. The inner wheels rotate less than the outer ones. A solid axle causes slippage, but independently rotating wheels don't have that problem - the inner and outer wheels are free to turn as much or as little as they need to.

On powered axles, this is the reason for a differential. On passive axles (like a trailer), no differential is required as long as the wheels are independent.

Forgive me if I misunderstand your point.

I think the other reason that the car analogy does not hold up is because you actually have 3 pivot points: the jack, the front and the rear axle. In order to turn, one of those 3 has to slide.

[AdaminMN]

Thr trailer should roll forward and backward with effort. If it does not, jack up one side at a time and spin the wheels to see if you have a brake dragging. If the wheels spin freely, either prefect your trailer backing skills or hit the gym.