Batteries?

[duffymahoney]

Hello, I noticed your conversation involving our products and wanted to offer some assistance and clarity on what has been posted. There's a lot to cover, so I apologize in advance for my lengthy post. While “AGM” and “gel” are often incorrectly used interchangeably, the next gel battery I see in a ski boat will be the first. Your likely options are a flooded lead-acid battery or an AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery. AGM batteries cost more, but will perform better and last longer if you take care of them. If you don't take care of your batteries, you're better off getting the cheapest battery you can find, with the most-liberal return policy.

Optima manufactures batteries designed for both cranking and deep-cycle use. Our 34M BlueTop is designed for cranking, while our D34M, D27M and D31M BlueTops are all designed for both cranking and deep-cycle use. We rate our batteries very conservatively, because we prefer to under-promise and over-deliver. Even with that in mind, pound for pound, the rating for our cranking amps can more than hold it's own with anything on the market. Our batteries will also continue delivering power well beyond their specified ratings. The reasons for that performance is because we use 99.99% pure virgin lead in all of our batteries (most use recycled lead) and we use robust cast straps to connect our cells, while most batteries use tombstone welds, which increase internal resistance. BrentP, I cannot speak for other AGM brands or manufacturers, but our batteries will handle deeper discharges and more cycles better than a typical flooded product

You don't need a special charger to charge Optima batteries and they are not “finicky” in regard to how they can be charged. Just use a regular battery charger on a regular setting, although AGM-specific settings are preferred. As others have indicated, battery performance and lifespan, regardless of brand, is largely tied to how a battery is used and maintained. Whenever any battery is discharged below 12.4 volts and is left sitting in that state, sulfation begins forming in the plates, which diminishes capacity and lifespan. That makes a quality battery maintenance device an excellent investment for any boat owner.

duffymahoney, if we had a 10% manufacturing defect rate, we wouldn't be able to keep our doors open. Even at a defect rate that would put us out of business, there's still a 90% chance you would get a good battery from us. If you buy two batteries from us, the odds would go to 99% that one of them would be good. By the time you're at seven batteries, the odds of you getting seven defective batteries in a row from us would be 1 in 10,000,000 and that's at a rate far beyond our actual defect rate, that would put us out of business. If you can beat those odds, your money would be better-spent on lottery tickets instead of batteries. I would suggest taking a hard look at how you use and maintain your new batteries.

The Navy (and other branches of the military) use lots of different brands of batteries in lots of different applications, including some boutique brands. It's also much easier for the military to procure batteries, because they typically buy batteries in large quantities on a regular basis. That's why Wal-Mart has so much of the consumer marine battery market- they're everywhere and always have marine batteries in stock. The same is true to a lesser degree with many boat dealers, who are also Interstate dealers (all Interstate dealers can also order Optima batteries, if they don't have them in stock).

cucv, if your belt is squealing, you may want to take a closer look at your belt tension. If you are considering installing larger batteries than what came in your boat and/or how you use your boat may be considered on the high-end in terms of electrical demand, you may also want to review the quality of your wiring and the output of your alternator. I have found John in tech support at Powermaster to be an invaluable resource when it comes to charging systems.

MJ021, ideally, you should keep your boat battery on a quality battery maintainer whenever you are not using the boat. Tournament anglers are pretty religious about this, because they depend so much on their trolling motor batteries, but I find many other recreational boaters tend to only charge their batteries while in off-season storage or at the beginning of the season. You are always better off maintaining proper voltage in your battery throughout the year, by using a quality battery maintainer, rather than relying on your alternator. The alternator is designed to maintain batteries near a full state of charge, not recover deeply-discharged batteries. Asking an alternator to recover deeply-discharged batteries can lead to a cycle of dead batteries and jump-starts, until either the batteries need to be replaced (expensive) or the alternator needs to be replaced (really expensive).

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries

I had awesome luck with optima prior to a few years ago. Most lasted 6-8 years. I bought an optima charger last year, prior I used some high end AGM one, all batteries were unhooked all winter in a heated garage, none on the ground. I charged all 3- 1 time during the middle of the winter and at the start. 2 of the 3 drop to below 10 volts overnight not hooked up after charging last week. All 3 were replacements for 3 from the prior year. I am hard on them, but the same setup prior worked great. At least 1-2 times a summer, someone leaves a pump on or something and drains both batteries to 0. I then pull both and charge both at home with an optima charger. Then one lives in my classic bronco I don't drive regularly, which I know is hard on them. I also don't want to leave them on a charger all the time. I just want to park and drive without going through that step. I hope I have better luck with the XS. Again I had to buy their charger. Fingers crossed.

[chpthril]

Optima_Jim,

its always nice to have industry insiders, professionals and manufactures reps contribute. Just note, my experiences are drawn from experience with a number of scenarios over a number of years. Example.

Client had just picked up his 3rd D31M in 2 seasons, prior to bringing me the boat for stereo upgrades. He was told that he needed the Optima charger, as his 20A 2-bank marine on-board charger with an AGM setting, was not going to properly service the Optima. Due to the scope of the clients audio build and desired use, we moved away from a single D31M to four 6V golf carts. Going on 3 years now, and they are running perfect on the same 20A charger that the original D31M did not like.

While I also like to under promise over deliver, I have an issue with contradicting manufactures stated specs. Even if I can see they are under reporting, I have an issue trying to sell a better number then manufacture advertises. One manufactures group 31 AGM advertises an Ah of 30% higher and at a much better price. Sorry man, thats tough to get past! "we advertise our boat at 21ft but it rides like a 25" ???? ?Our 350 HP engine really delivers 400 HP" See the dilemma?

As to "finicky" I encourage anyone to read through the Optima FAQs. There are a handful of reference to otpima charging and other chargers may not get the job done.

Jim, I dont think you offer a bad battery, but I feel the Optima is not the best bang for the buck, especially for a house bank. My experience has shown me that a standard alternator may leave an Optima wanting. Some marine on-board charges are not servicing the optima, yet other AGM do fine.

[sandm]

I knew optimas were spensive but never shopped them. that d31m shows a retail north of 3 bills. 2 deep cycle and a starting battery will end up running north of $1100 with uncle sam's share.
not sure I really understand the appeal.

[OptimaJim]

duffymahoney, the better care people take with their batteries, the luckier they get, regardless of brand. Placing batteries on concrete hasn't been a problem since battery cases were made from wood and cells were made from glass jars. Stored batteries do best in cool, dry locations, connected to a quality battery maintenance device.

If you don't want to leave stored batteries on a quality charger, then the next-best option is to completely disconnect the fully-charged battery from the vehicle when it goes into storage and then fully-charge it again, before bringing it out. I realize that adds unwanted steps, but all of our chargers also come with quick disconnect pigtails to make it easier to keep batteries properly-maintained while not in use. Ken Lingenfelter could afford to buy a new battery every day for all the cars in his collection, but he keeps them all on maintainers, until he wants to use them, because he knows it just makes the most sense in the long run.

I know some battery brands and manufacturers do require their customers to use specific chargers or risk having their warranty voided. We don't do that with our warranty, but if you're dealing with a company who does, crossing your fingers isn't enough- you'll need to jump through all the warranty hoops they put in front of you.

Chpthril, relative to a single Optima D31M being replaced by four 6V golf cart batteries, I don't know how your client was using or maintaining their Optima previously or what those 6V batteries are rated at in terms of reserve capacity or how those four 6V batteries are configured into a 12-volt system, but I would presume it would be series/parallel, which doubles voltage and Ah.

A typical 6V golf cart battery is physically larger than our D31M and has far more reserve capacity (~200Ah vs 75Ah). So if you're client replaced a single ~60 pound, 75Ah battery with four batteries weighing ~250 pounds and delivering 400Ah, they've increased their available Ah by more than five times. The shallower the discharge cycle, the more cycles a system of batteries will provide, regardless of the brand. Again, not knowing how the D31M was cycled in that application, if it was being discharged down to a 10% state of charge and the bank of 6-volt batteries are only being discharged down to 83% state of charge, they could see 100 cycles on the D31M versus 800 or more on the the bank of 6V batteries.

So was this client plugging in a 20-amp charger for an hour before using the boat and expecting a full state of charge or letting a deeply-discharged battery sit and sulfate for an extended period of time before recharging it? Only they know the answer to that question and I often find people don't have the best memory when it comes to how they maintain their batteries. I'm not at all surprised to hear that someone with a big stereo system is happier with four batteries that offer 5x the reserve capacity of the single battery they replaced. I'm also not sure I understand your second analogy relating to ratings.

I would encourage anyone to read through the Optima FAQs on charging. Keep in mind, the purpose of that page is to help people charge Optima batteries. The reality of the situation is that people have many of the same problems charging other batteries and many of those issues can be sourced back to the voltage of their battery and the charger they are using.

Many chargers, including some of the most-commonly found chargers on the market today, will not recognize or charge batteries that have been discharged below a minimum voltage level, often as high as 10.5 volts. We lobbied these manufacturers for years to change their algorithms, but most didn't see the value in it, even though many tournament anglers routinely come off the water on windy/high-current days with batteries discharged into the single-digits. That's how we ended up with our own chargers and maintainers, that can recover batteries that have been discharged as low as 1.25 volts. That's also why some other brands will void your warranty, if you don't use one of the chargers on their “approved” list.

I understand not everyone sees the value in purchasing one of our batteries (or many other premium brands). People make purchase decisions for a lot of different reasons and we don't always check everyone's boxes- we're not the lightest, we're not the cheapest, we're not the right size, etc... I understand individual experiences can vary, but our experience as a manufacturer, who works closely with the OEs and aftermarket alternator and charger manufacturers is that the low internal resistance of our batteries allows them to accept current and charge faster than a typical flooded or AGM battery.

sandm, I talk to tournament anglers all the time, who aren't very good about keeping their batteries charged and just buy a new set of $600 Wal-Mart batteries at the start of every season. I also talk to anglers who are willing to pay $2700 for the lightest lithium batteries on the market (plus another $300 for a required lithium charger). We're not a cheap date, but we have a lot of folks who like our products, because they do get exceptional performance from them.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries
www.pinterest.com/optimabatteries