2006 24Ve' Ballast Design

[Thegerman618]

Hey TO,

So after the reunion and many people laughing at me as I throw my old pump and wire over the side to fill my ballast "the old way" as I was told. I have sat down and designed what I think is pretty cool layout, but may be pretty basic to some. I didn't really do anything special I don't think, but I do have in the plan to plumb in 2 more spare bilge pumps on the extreme sides of the bilge so that when surfing on the list I can run an independent bilge on the surf side just in case. Mike please be gentle with your words on my design, I am sure you have way cooler stuff but the good news is if I got this right I have a pretty big parts list for you. Can anyone see anything I missed or put something I shouldn't have somewhere or more importantly didn't? This is going to be my off season project. I also plan to install a Master Toggle switch on the switch panel that will control power to all the ballast switches so if by accident one of the switches gets hit nothing will happen unless the master is on. Let me know what you all think!
TIGE BALLAST DESIGN.jpg

[chpthril]

Mike please be gentle with your words on my design, I am sure you have way cooler stuff but the good news is if I got this right I have a pretty big parts list for you

I'll use lube

[Thegerman618]

Please do, Its my first time LOL Your awesome Mike I hope you will be willing to help me out.

[BCRider]

Mike will probably do most of the leg work here for you but I found it really helpful for myself to lay it out with the actual pieces I would need like below so I knew what I had to order compared to what I already had from a previous install.

Personally if I had to do it again (which I do Starboard side) I would use the proper fitting clamps instead of gear clamps. Just for the lack of sharp edges.

[IDBoating]

1) Why not orient the crossover switch left-to-right, so it's more intuitive? I did it (back when I had switches) and it worked and looked great.

2) Watch the current on that "master" switch. If you are running several pumps you could be pulling at or above a normal switch's DC current rating. Best case you'll shorten the life of that switch. Worst case....

[Thegerman618]

Thanks for the replies and the advice, I will have to adjust my design a bit I like the addition of pictures it does make it more easy to read. I looked at my design again earlier after some sleep and narrowed it down to spaghetti on plate or a John Madden drawing of Brett Farve Running for his life.

Thanks IDBoating for the tip, I haven't seen the amp draw on the pumps yet so I cant speculate what there peak will be. I figure if I run 12V DC to the Master Switch (15Amp Switch), run relays with inline fuses to each rocker and additional in-line fuses at the pump (just in case) as a fail safe I should be good but I am not electrical engineer just a few wires loose upstairs. Funny I thought about mounting the X-Over sideways but thought it would look funny glad to hear you liked it I may have to address that design as well and do the horizontal mount.

I have another question that not sure has been asked:

Is there anyway to track how full a ballast bag is on gauge? I know hard tanks use the magnetic or float switch, has anything been designed for bags, perhaps a programmed piece of fiber optics?

[IDBoating]

I haven't seen the amp draw on the pumps yet so I cant speculate what there peak will be.

Whatever pumps you use will have a recommended fuse. If you want to be really conservative, add up all of the downstream fuses that could be on simultaneously and make sure your master switch is rated for that many DC amps. Since rocker switches won't allow you to have the fill and drain pumps for a single sac on at the same time, you would (for example) add one bow pump, one port pump, and one starboard pump and there's your value. If your bilge pumps are also on that master switch you'd need to include them too.

Is there anyway to track how full a ballast bag is on gauge? I know hard tanks use the magnetic or float switch, has anything been designed for bags, perhaps a programmed piece of fiber optics?

OMG, you have no idea what a can of worms that opens up! Along the way manufacturers have tried everything: Flow gauges, tank sensors, pressure pads, you name it. Right now the "Big Guys" (read: Murphy and Medallion) do it by timing how long the pumps are on, which even they will openly admit is totally worthless and subject to a huge number of variables such as hull velocity, hull angle of attack (i.e. bow rise), type of thruhull, placement of thruhull in the hull, etc. etc. etc.

The short answer is "No". There ARE solutions but they are either expensive or technically complex, and no manufacturer wants to buy off on them. But you're welcome to pour more time and money into the subject! Share your results!

[Captainkurk72]

I did some research once and found www.cleanmarine.com. From the products drop down go to ballast level sensor. They have a demo link in upper right of page. No pricing but I was going to call when I got ready for the project. If get a price please share or if anyone knows anything more on this.


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[chpthril]

A reversible impeller pump can average 15-20 amps draw and peak at 30 when flipping direction. Each 1200 will draw about 5A. Its realistic to factor on having the impeller pump and 3 aerator pumps running at once. So thats a potential of a 35A continuous. So a 15A master switch would melt in a few minutes on the first trip out. The ballast switches I use are rated for 20A, so they do not need a relay on the supply. Id be happy to design you a schematic once you are ready.

The problem with level sensors and ballast sacs, is, well, the sacs.......................

[IDBoating]

I did some research once and found www.cleanmarine.com. From the products drop down go to ballast level sensor. They have a demo link in upper right of page. No pricing but I was going to call when I got ready for the project. If get a price please share or if anyone knows anything more on this.

We looked at those guys a while back. Clever, and it might work OK for short height sacs. But that little hose amongst a tall sac that fills and collapses each time... heck, my one inch fill and vent hoses get mistreated/bent/strained every day, and they're reinforced hose! Just didn't see that little hose making it very long in the real world.

I suppose you could come off with bigger/stronger hose, then adapter it down to their preferred size, find a good mounting location where the hoses maintain a monotonically increasing slope so you avoid trapping air pockets, etc. But then you're basically redesigning their system for them. Fun project for a one-off design, but I haven't heard any of the manufacturers using this approach and ALL of them would love a solution to this problem.

We opted not to go with it, but like I said - give it a shot and report back!

EDIT: Thinking about it some more, I don't think you could go the big-hose-to-little-hose route. This system works on air pressure; as the water tries to come up the little hose, it compresses the air and a pressure tranducer reads that pressure and knows what level of water would result in that degree of compression. A big fat hose in the system would increase the cross-sectional area, ruining the relationship that their electronics understands for their standard little hose. It would require recalibration, not sure they support that.

[Captainkurk72]

Thank you and maybe a flexible stainless line. Swagelok can make custom sizes. However very expensive. Another thought is high density polyethylene tubing. I will make a call to them and see what I can work out. Thanks again.


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[Captainkurk72]

Thank you and maybe a flexible stainless line. Swagelok can make custom sizes. However very expensive. Another thought is high density polyethylene tubing. I will make a call to them and see what I can work out. Thanks again.


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[Thegerman618]

Thanks for all the replies guys I am hoping there is something out there that will work, keep us posted if you find something.

Mike I got your PM I will give you a call next week, to start ordering.