'12 22ve ballast upgrade

[sandm]

Have a few questions relating to upgrading the ballast setup in my 22ve..

it has the surf option. wanting to get more weight on the pass side. we rarely ever ride switch, so I'll leave the factory stuff on that side alone for now..

I am wanting to add an additional sack above the hardtank to replace the 300 currently. should I plumb in an extra pump for this or just plug the new bag in on top? fill times are not a concern for me as we just sit and enjoy the lake while its filling.
I have a 650 under the pass seat that I'm currently filling manually. I know that it's not filling to the full 650, but it's more weight. I want to integrate it into the setup to fill with that side. not sure how tigetouch does this. do I need to add an additional switch for just that bag or wire a fill/drain pump off the rear locker setup?

lastly, how easy is it to wire a new pump(s) to the existing setup? I noticed there's a big hatch that appears to raise up on the floor but it looks like I have to remove the rear seat to raise it up? assuming the pumps are under there..

thoughts?

thanks for the help/advice..

[chpthril]

If fill time is not a concern, then I would just go with a custom Plug-n-Play and let the factory system handle the filling and draining through the TT. Fill and drain time will be about 15 minutes if you go with an Enzo style "L" shaped custom.

If you want to speed the fill and drain time up, then I would give the new sac its own stand-alone fill and drain plumbing. This keeps it independent of the bass level system, so you can still fill it for boarding. You can tie the new pumps into the existing pumps, but then the surf sac is filling anytime that side ballast is activated. If you are only wanting to board, then you will have a partially filled surf sac on that one side. Adding in an additional fill pump is not hard.

I think with will be more trouble then its worth to try and tie that 650 into the existing system. Filling will not be too much trouble, but draining will be problematic. I would treat it as a stand-alone sac or continue to fill it manually. Also, this sac may not be needed if you go with an "L" shaped custom.

To electrically tie into the existing pumps, I would use a relay for each new pump that is triggered by the existing pump circuit. Im not sure how much load the Medallion system can handle, so the relay shifts the load of the new pup to the B+ BUSS. To plumb in a new pump, search out the ballast upgrade, check this thread http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12864 . Its an 09, but the ballast pump layout is about the same. Yes, you will need to pull up the seat and floor to gain access to do this mod.

[sandm]

so what I could do would be to add an additional pump like they did and wire it off the same rear pump. I'm sure the relay would handle the added draw of an additional pump. the medallion system should be sending a low voltage signal to a relay with the relay being 12volts to the pump. as long as I'm not over that amp/volt draw, I should be ok.

now question is to just add a 750 or so to the back locker and fill/drain off the factory setup and hardwire in the 650 or ditch both the 650/300 and add an enzo style sack and hardwire an extra fill/drain pump to allow it to fill much quicker as I think the enzo sacks have extra fittings for that. all I would be adding either way would be 2 pumps, hose, the brass splitter under the floor and a thru-hull? and of course the sack.

what would you recommend?

for the record, we don't wakeboard either. maybe a set or 2 a year. solid surf so if we boarded, it would be with no tanks full and rely on taps..

[chpthril]

The current pumps are powered directly off the Medalion through a 10A fuse. Ill bet its stout enough to handle another 3-6 amps, but a $5 relay would forever prevent burning up a $1000 PC board.

Hard for me to say which route you should go, as my opinion might seem biased to some. To go with any of the standard sacs would be a bit of work to integrate them into the existing Tige Surf Sac plumbing do to thier port location and count. Yes, the Fly High W712 Enzo does have extra ports, but like any of the other standard sac, their ports are not in a favorable location.

[skippabcool]

sandm, for what it is worth, it might be better to pay a little extra now and do it once and be done. I have done business with chpthril, as have many others, and was pleased. He will treat you good. I know he will give you a couple of options but I value what he would do if it was he boat.

Good luck on your install and have fun.

[sandm]

Dont get me wrong, i use enzo sack as a generic tern for any L shaped sack. I think the best setup that i can do would be a single or combo that fills rear locker and under seat.
Mike, can u hook me up with all the parts for a single sack and an extra fill/drain pump to install, but only use the extra sack for now until winter and i find time to install pumps knowing that ill have extra fill times until next spring. Can a singlebag plug/play and will stock setup support fir another2 months?

[mnpracing]

The current pumps are powered directly off the Medalion through a 10A fuse. Ill bet its stout enough to handle another 3-6 amps, but a $5 relay would forever prevent burning up a $1000 PC board.

Without knowing how the Medallion system works would it work to replace the 10A fuse with, say a 15 or 20A to handle both pumps, or is there something with the way the system works that would make this a bad idea? To be clear, I'm not even sure what the Medallion is. so my only frame of reference is what I've done on other boats.

[chpthril]

Without knowing how the Medallion system works would it work to replace the 10A fuse with, say a 15 or 20A to handle both pumps, or is there something with the way the system works that would make this a bad idea? To be clear, I'm not even sure what the Medallion is. so my only frame of reference is what I've done on other boats.

What year and model boat do you have, lets start there and then we can maybe put together a specific answer to a direct application.

Now, in general: The Medallion is the system that controls the Tige Touch interface on the Tige boats. Its also used on other boats that have a display type control center.

The Medallion board is nothing more then a processor PCB (printed circuit board). Like any other circuit, whether its PC or hard-wire, its designed to handle up to a certain load. If we exceed that load, something melts. In a perfect world, it should be a fuse. If we swap the factory fuse for a higher amperage fuse, then now the rest of the circuit is the week spot.

So, with any traditional hard-wired ballast pump system, I could say yes or no on doubling up on the pumps, but with the Medallion system, I do not know how robust it is, so I cant say for sure if it will handle the load of a second pump.

[mnpracing]

What year and model boat do you have, lets start there and then we can maybe put together a specific answer to a direct application.

Now, in general: The Medallion is the system that controls the Tige Touch interface on the Tige boats. Its also used on other boats that have a display type control center.

The Medallion board is nothing more then a processor PCB (printed circuit board). Like any other circuit, whether its PC or hard-wire, its designed to handle up to a certain load. If we exceed that load, something melts. In a perfect world, it should be a fuse. If we swap the factory fuse for a higher amperage fuse, then now the rest of the circuit is the week spot.

So, with any traditional hard-wired ballast pump system, I could say yes or no on doubling up on the pumps, but with the Medallion system, I do not know how robust it is, so I cant say for sure if it will handle the load of a second pump.

sorry, the boat is a '13 Z3. I'm trying to plan mods to the system to decrease fill time to the rear "enzo" sacs by either adding a pump to each side to have two fill each bag and/or a cross-link pump to pump from one to the other. I figured I could add a T onto the thru-hull and add a pump to each one, which then feeds the opposite bag, so add a pump off of a T to the stock port fill pump intake which will become the 2nd starboard fill pump, and vice versa. I'm taken back by the TigeTouch tech and am a little afraid to mess with anything. For the wiring, my simple mind says to just tie in the wiring to the existing pump since I will run them at the same time anyway.

[chpthril]

sorry, the boat is a '13 Z3. I'm trying to plan mods to the system to decrease fill time to the rear "enzo" sacs by either adding a pump to each side to have two fill each bag and/or a cross-link pump to pump from one to the other. I figured I could add a T onto the thru-hull and add a pump to each one, which then feeds the opposite bag, so add a pump off of a T to the stock port fill pump intake which will become the 2nd starboard fill pump, and vice versa. I'm taken back by the TigeTouch tech and am a little afraid to mess with anything. For the wiring, my simple mind says to just tie in the wiring to the existing pump since I will run them at the same time anyway.

Adding an additional fill pump as well as doing a transfer pump is simple. Sandm is adding an extra fill and drain pump to his custom surf sac and his order is almost ready to ship out. All we need to do is finalize a couple details.

Transfer pump: A reversible impeller pump is the best way to go, but needs to be on its own dedicated DPDT toggle switch. This will help reduce the time it takes to switch from the port to starboard wakes. It can also speed up draining, by kicking on both rear drain pumps, then transfer water to the empty off surf-side sac.

Additional fill pump: You can T off an existing thru-hull/ball-valve and reattach the OEM pump and the new fill pump. When doing this, I recommend pairing the new fill pump with the opposite side fill pump. The odds are slim that both these pumps will be running at the same time. This prevents the 2 pumps from overrunning the single .75 thru-hull. It doesnt hurt the pumps if this happens, it just might slow down the fill rate as one or both pumps might fight for water. With Tige Touch/Medallion system, I would recommend using a relay triggered off an existing ballast pump to power the added fill pumps. It a $5 insurance policy against ever burning out the PCB.

What ballast option does your Z3 have and what surf sac are you currently running? Depending on what ballast option your 2013 Z3 has and what ballast surf sac you have added, i may have a different thought in regards to the additional pumps. If you Z3 has the base level ballast, I would consider doing the surf sac as a standalone sac with its own pumps and plumbing an individual switch to control those pumps. Just a thought to toss out.

[mnpracing]

Adding an additional fill pump as well as doing a transfer pump is simple. Sandm is adding an extra fill and drain pump to his custom surf sac and his order is almost ready to ship out. All we need to do is finalize a couple details.

Transfer pump: A reversible impeller pump is the best way to go, but needs to be on its own dedicated DPDT toggle switch. This will help reduce the time it takes to switch from the port to starboard wakes. It can also speed up draining, by kicking on both rear drain pumps, then transfer water to the empty off surf-side sac.

Additional fill pump: You can T off an existing thru-hull/ball-valve and reattach the OEM pump and the new fill pump. When doing this, I recommend pairing the new fill pump with the opposite side fill pump. The odds are slim that both these pumps will be running at the same time. This prevents the 2 pumps from overrunning the single .75 thru-hull. It doesnt hurt the pumps if this happens, it just might slow down the fill rate as one or both pumps might fight for water. With Tige Touch/Medallion system, I would recommend using a relay triggered off an existing ballast pump to power the added fill pumps. It a $5 insurance policy against ever burning out the PCB.

What ballast option does your Z3 have and what surf sac are you currently running? Depending on what ballast option your 2013 Z3 has and what ballast surf sac you have added, i may have a different thought in regards to the additional pumps. If you Z3 has the base level ballast, I would consider doing the surf sac as a standalone sac with its own pumps and plumbing an individual switch to control those pumps. Just a thought to toss out.

I have the pro ballast package (2,300#), and I'm putting the L-shaped sacs in both port and starboard hatches. Question, does the 250# tank fill through the bag? It looks like the fill hose goes into the bag first, then it must gravity feed into the hard tank, is that how it works? Then the bag must empty into the tank? Do you happen to have the schematic for wiring in the relay? Do you place it in-line between the new pump's + wire and the existing pump's + wire?

[chpthril]

I have the pro ballast package (2,300#), and I'm putting the L-shaped sacs in both port and starboard hatches. Question, does the 250# tank fill through the bag? It looks like the fill hose goes into the bag first, then it must gravity feed into the hard tank, is that how it works? Then the bag must empty into the tank? Do you happen to have the schematic for wiring in the relay? Do you place it in-line between the new pump's + wire and the existing pump's + wire?

The factory fill hose actually Y's off and goes to the hard tank and to the sac. The sac has two ports in the bottom panel that go to the hard tank, so eater does gravity drain from the sac to the tank.

The relay is fairly straight forward. We use a typical 5 pin 12 VDC relay.
Pin #85 = taps into the OEM pump's switched B+
Pin #86 and auxiliary pump's black wire run to GND.
Pin #30 = Goes to the Battery B+
Pin #87 = To auxiliary pump's brown B+ wire.

This can all be done with 14ga primary wire. The relay carries the load of the new pump, with its coil being triggered by the OEM pump turning on.

Since Sandm is only running one our Custom Plug-n-Play surf sacs, he's doing an auxiliary drain pump instead of a transfer pump. We're fixing him up the Rule 1100 GPH pumps.

[mnpracing]

The relay is fairly straight forward. We use a typical 5 pin 12 VDC relay.
Pin #85 = taps into the OEM pump's switched B+
Pin #86 and auxiliary pump's black wire run to GND.
Pin #30 = Goes to the Battery B+
Pin #87 = To auxiliary pump's brown B+ wire.

This can all be done with 14ga primary wire. The relay carries the load of the new pump, with its coil being triggered by the OEM pump turning on.

Since Sandm is only running one our Custom Plug-n-Play surf sacs, he's doing an auxiliary drain pump instead of a transfer pump. We're fixing him up the Rule 1100 GPH pumps.

Thank you this is very, very helpful. Stupid question: what does "B +" mean? I'm assuming the + is the positive wire, but not sure about the B. And would you recommend having the relay up under the helm somewhere? Couple more:
1. To wire the transfer pump, those pull about 15-20amps right? Would I wire this directly to the battery with an in-line fuse, through a 3 pole switch mounted near the helm, or is there a terminal block under the dash to wire it to?
2. To wire a separate drain pump for the surf sac, I'm assuming this would have to be wired to a separate switch as well? And same as above, where's the best place to wire it to if you want it to be a dedicated pump.

[chpthril]

Thank you this is very, very helpful. Stupid question: what does "B +" mean? I'm assuming the + is the positive wire, but not sure about the B. And would you recommend having the relay up under the helm somewhere? Couple more:
1. To wire the transfer pump, those pull about 15-20amps right? Would I wire this directly to the battery with an in-line fuse, through a 3 pole switch mounted near the helm, or is there a terminal block under the dash to wire it to?
2. To wire a separate drain pump for the surf sac, I'm assuming this would have to be wired to a separate switch as well? And same as above, where's the best place to wire it to if you want it to be a dedicated pump.

"B" = battery positive. If you tapped in under the helm, you would only need to run a single wire from the relay to the pumps brown B+, then from the battery or GND BUSS to the pumps black wire. If you locate the relay near the battery, then you only need to run the pump's B+ and GND to the pump. Either location is ok.
1) yes, 15-20A. I would pull the B+ and GND for the switch, right from under the helm. There is both a B+ and GND BUSS under the helm thats feed with 4ga wire. Yes, fuse the B+ off the BUSS to the switch.
2)No, you can do it the same way as the auxiliary fill pump and have it run right along with the factory drain pump.

or

You can install a switch for both the auxiliary fill and drain pumps so that sac can be interdependently controlled from the in-floor tank.

[sandm]

sorry, sent you a pm before reading this thread..
basically everything mike said.

I can't wait to get this project going

it will be a learning process that's for sure. I plan on going through next spring with it set up this way and may end up ditching the tigetouch and hardwiring in switches, but it seems like the easy way to do that is to add a toggle with power to it and just run it into the medallion panel on the left side where you can swap the fuse in to bypass the tigetouch..

adding a sound system(thanks for the advice so far mike) and doing this with the radio. he's sending me a switch to turn h.u. on and off and plan on hardwiring the deck with that. going to add another clarion puck to the dash somewhere and take most of the audio functionality away from tigetouch. only plan on using the mute button going forward..