RZ2 basic ballast to Surf plus

[Ewok]

I posted this in the drain/fill discussion but I don't want to hi-jack that thread anymore. Thanks to WAB and Duff for feedback already. I'm getting ready to finalize the plan below, hopefully my CINCHouse will give the ok to start ordering parts and get this thing together. Any comments and/or lessons learned to help the process go smoother will be greatly appreciated.

Here is my plan, I worked on it last year with Chpthrill and got the transfer idea from you guys. I'm thinking about having an extra crossover or transfer line between the sacs with manual shutoffs that I could reach through the engine compartment. Gravity would help a bit with the fill and drain of the sacs when switching from side to side. Chp talked me into the W719 because I actually use the storage under the seats and I like to use the cooler as well. I'm not changing anything with the ballast in the bow, for now. I'm on the fence about which pumps to use. Chp suggested using the existing thru-hulls and add a manifold to them and run pumps to fill the surf sacs from the opposite hard tank manifold so that they get full flow from the thruhulls. Any thoughts or considerations I should worry about? Thanks.

[duffymahoney]

Run vents and drains to the opposite side. This will make sure all the weight remains in the sac and makes it 100% automatic. Also everything needs check valves. All fill, drains and vents.

[talltigeguy]

Run vents and drains to the opposite side. This will make sure all the weight remains in the sac and makes it 100% automatic. Also everything needs check valves. All fill, drains and vents.

Why does he need a check valve on his vents? With aerator pumps that should not be necessary.

[duffymahoney]

Prunes the sacs up so the don't suck in air while they empty. You don't want any air getting into the sac if you can get around it.

[Timmy!]

Prunes the sacs up so the don't suck in air while they empty. You don't want any air getting into the sac if you can get around it.

+1 That's how I have mine too and it really works. Also allows you to only use 1 thru hull. Use a "T" and run the vent and drain to the same place.

Main problem that I have on mine is that once the sac is full, it pushes the water past the drain pump for some reason. I thought it was the vent originally, but I disconnected that and the water was still coming out.

[duffymahoney]

Water takes the path of least resistance. I actually just use the vents to make sure air is out. When we fill I always watch the sac to make sure it fills as full as possible.

[Duncan]

Run vents and drains to the opposite side. This will make sure all the weight remains in the sac and makes it 100% automatic. Also everything needs check valves. All fill, drains and vents.

X3. Just check valves are not enough on the drain line -- on our 2009 RZ2, same side drain line with check valve will auto-siphon when under surf ballast. I crossed the vents to opposite sides last year thinking that would be enough but it was not. So this season will see the drain cross sides too (probably in a T with the vent).

[Duncan]

I'm not changing anything with the ballast in the bow, for now.

You might reconsider given how easy this is to do. All plumbing and pumps already exist. Just connect two separate sacks to the existing lines (plus one vent T) and rewire one of the pumps.

I think the ability to have surf-side specific bow weight really cleans up the wave (i.e., similar pocket lengthening compared to U-sack but much less wave mushiness).

[talltigeguy]

Prunes the sacs up so the don't suck in air while they empty. You don't want any air getting into the sac if you can get around it.

Can an aerator pump really prune the sack up? By pruning the sack up, we are referring to negative pressure...
If that were the case, wouldn't the aerator suck water through the intake as well and just keep cycling water from the lake into the sack and out the side of the boat?

I have not had much problem with water left in the sack without doing that. My 8 foot long surf sack has about 25 pounds of water left in it when the pump is done.

+1 That's how I have mine too and it really works. Also allows you to only use 1 thru hull. Use a "T" and run the vent and drain to the same place.

Main problem that I have on mine is that once the sac is full, it pushes the water past the drain pump for some reason. I thought it was the vent originally, but I disconnected that and the water was still coming out.

Timmy, you not only have a check valve, but have to have it if you use only 1 through hull or else the discharge would flow back into the overflow.

The question would be on Ewok's system where he diagrams separate through hull and drains, if he would need a check valve on the vent...my vote is no, but I am open to gathering more intelligence on the matter.

I have never quite understood the fear or obsession with decreasing the number of through hulls. IMPO, the extra T fitting, clamps and check valve always seemed clumsy looking to me. Not to mention more opportunities for failure. I put my purse down and drilled another hole.

[Timmy!]

Can an aerator pump really prune the sack up? By pruning the sack up, we are referring to negative pressure...
If that were the case, wouldn't the aerator suck water through the intake as well and just keep cycling water from the lake into the sack and out the side of the boat?

The answer is yes. Not sure why it doesn't pull water through the intake but it doesn't. As long as my drain pump stays primed, it will collapse the bag completely with no air left in it.

As far as thru-hulls are concerned, a T is much cheaper than another thru-hull. My whole system was built based on cost. Also, you can't see the T or the hose clamps anyway so who cares.

[IDBoating]

The answer is yes. Not sure why it doesn't pull water through the intake but it doesn't. As long as my drain pump stays primed, it will collapse the bag completely with no air left in it.

I agree, and I wondered how, but I recently figured it out. If the vent line has a dip in it and that dip gets water in it, it acts as a trap. It still works as a vent (once the sac completely fills) but during draining the drain pump cannot draw enough vacuum to suck the water out of the "trap" (just as it cannot self-prime through the intake pump). So the sac goes skin-tight.

[Ewok]

+1 That's how I have mine too and it really works. Also allows you to only use 1 thru hull. Use a "T" and run the vent and drain to the same place.

Main problem that I have on mine is that once the sac is full, it pushes the water past the drain pump for some reason. I thought it was the vent originally, but I disconnected that and the water was still coming out.

Why is it a bad thing if water pushes past the drain pump when the bag is full? It's just acting as a second vent, correct? I will plan to route the drain and vent lines to the opposite side as suggested by everyone.

[chpthril]

Why is it a bad thing if water pushes past the drain pump when the bag is full? It's just acting as a second vent, correct? I will plan to route the drain and vent lines to the opposite side as suggested by everyone.

Its not a bad thing.....as long as its not a source of passive draining. With large/tall sacs, and having the drain t-hulls located below the rubrail, the drain plumbing can be the route of some passive draining.

Got your email and will chew it over and get back with you with some answers and probably a few additional questions.

Thanks,
Mike

[IDBoating]

Run vents and drains to the opposite side. This will make sure all the weight remains in the sac and makes it 100% automatic. Also everything needs check valves. All fill, drains and vents.

I'll carefully tread in here and say that I did this a different way. I was originally going to vent and drain to the opposite side, but after considering hose lengths and routing I went forward instead:



This pattern is repeated on the other side. Vents and drains are on the same side as the sac in question. But by having them high and forward like this, they are always above the top of the sac (because the bow rides higher than the stern) even when it is maxed out. There is no chance for syphoning, and check valves (with their backpressure and subsequent reduction in flow) are not required.

Furthermore, access to the back of these vents/drains is easy through the storage compartment. Cutting and chamfering the holes, installing the thruhulls, connecting the hoses, etc. is all easy with lots of room. And the resulting thruhulls and hoses are up at the top of the compartment so you don't lose useful storage space. They're also easy to monitor from the driver's seat without even turning around.

I had one guy say he'd never seen ballast thruhulls above the rubrail, but on the other hand I've have LOTS of people compliment their appearance and claim they "look factory". I can say this: They work great!

Just another idea to consider.

[chpthril]

I'll carefully tread in here and say that I did this a different way. I was originally going to vent and drain to the opposite side, but after considering hose lengths and routing I went forward instead:



This pattern is repeated on the other side. Vents and drains are on the same side as the sac in question. But by having them high and forward like this, they are always above the top of the sac (because the bow rides higher than the stern) even when it is maxed out. There is no chance for syphoning, and check valves (with their backpressure and subsequent reduction in flow) are not required.

Furthermore, access to the back of these vents/drains is easy through the storage compartment. Cutting and chamfering the holes, installing the thruhulls, connecting the hoses, etc. is all easy with lots of room. And the resulting thruhulls and hoses are up at the top of the compartment so you don't lose useful storage space.

I had one guy say he'd never seen ballast thruhulls above the rubrail, but on the other hand I've have LOTS of people compliment their appearance and claim they "look factory".

Just another idea to consider.

Are the rear sac's drain/vent T-hulls also above the rubrail? Its usually the rear sacs where the passive draining is experienced.