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    Fat sac fill/drain rate research...

    It has always bothered me that while we often use one inch throughhulls, pumps, and hoses, the native fittings on most fat sacs are 0.75 inch. I've wondered what would happen if we could decrease the flow restriction caused by those 3/4 inch fittings. I had some time this morning to run some tests on ways to do that.

    We cannot change the fittings on the fat sac. However, we can add more of them and run them in parallel. Two 0.75 inch fittings have a combined cross-sectional area well in excess of a single one inch pump or hose, so if we're going to get any benefit it will show up with two fittings and 3+ won't add much.

    The obvious way to do this is with a Y (or "wye") fitting. In other words, a one inch hose to a one inch Y to two short sections of one inch hose to the sac fittings.

    It turns out that one inch Y's are incredibly hard to find. Those that are available are, oddly enough, made with high wall thickness which restricts their internal diameter - the exact opposite of what we're trying to achieve. What I'd like is a Y made with the same wall thickness as the Fly High W741 or W746. The best I was able to find had an ID of 0.670, worse than the sac's native fittings.

    This led me to consider T's. Obviously, a T inserted in the "normal" fashion would introduce huge flow restriction due to the turbulence caused by the hard 90 degree turn toward each side. But this can be solved by plumbing the T with the straight-line flow along its long axis. This yields a straight through flow path with a "side" port.

    In this configuration, one would expect virtually all of the flow to pass straight through the T as long as there are no downstream restrictions causing backpressure. That's ideal for this application, since what we're trying to do is recover losses. The flow doesn't need to be equal through the two fat sac fittings. We just want to make sure that if there are restrictions - if the pump could be delivering more water - that we provide a path for that extra pressure to do useful work.

    Here's a photo of the components I used for testing:



    In this photo I have the test hoses and fittings connected to the T to illustrate what I was describing above. "Normal" flow should shoot straight through the T, while the side port should benefit from backpressure in the system, if any. In this way the T itself introduces as little new restriction as possible.

    When I searched for T's, my thought was to find some intended for that "funny pipe" used in sprinkler systems. However, it seems that industry has stopped making dedicated fittings and how relies on standard Schedule 40 and Schedule 80 barbed fittings. That's unfortunate, because 40 and 80 have thicker walls than is necessary. While the T's I used have larger ID's than the fat sac fittings, it's not as much as I'd hoped.

    On to the tests. First, I did a flow test on my standard setup: One inch hose to a W746 to a W743 that would be screwed into the sac. (It's important to include everything the water actually sees on its way into the sac.) I used that flow rate (~0.33 gallons per second, or roughly 1200GPH from my 1600GPH-rated Rule 29B pump) as a baseline.

    Next, I switched to the T setup shown in the photo above. I started with just the T and hose and no fittings on the ends of the hose at all. With this setup, basically no water came out of the side port.

    I added the W746 right angles, figuring they would add some backpressure, and sure enough now we had water coming out of the side port. This proved the basic concept: That the Fly High fittings are introducing backpressure that sacrifices some of our pump capacity.

    Finally, the W743's (grey threaded sac fittings on the end) were added, which is the real-world situation the water sees as it flows into the sacs. Now the flow out of the side port was significant. That makes sense, because the majority of the flow restriction in a one inch ballast system comes from Fly High's W743 and its 3/4 inch internal diameter.

    So the question is: Do we really get any net increase in throughput? The answer is yes, but not as much as I'd hoped. I measured a 12.5% increase in flow rate (to ~0.37 gallons per second, or ~1350GPH) with the T setup shown above. Definitely an improvement, and a bargain considering the low cost and ease of installation (no extra pumps), but not earth-shattering.

    Next I tried the Y. The measured increase there was about half that of the T. Given the wall thickness and small ID of the Y, I was mildly surprised there was any increase at all. This leads me to believe there is serious merit to this concept but at present we are being held back by fittings with excessively thick walls intended for much higher pressures than our ballast systems use.

    In summary, it is indeed possible to gain increased throughput cheaply and easily by paralleling two fat sac fittings. However, I believe the increase is being held back by the wall thickness of available fittings. If we could find T's or Y's with thinner walls, the increase could hit 20%.

    If I'd seen 20% today, I'd have retrofitted this concept onto both ends of both stern fat sacs this morning. But for 12.5%, it can wait until I winterize. In the meantime, the search for thin-walled, low pressure one inch barbed fittings continues.
    Last edited by IDBoating; 09-08-2011, 08:13 PM.

    #2
    Great write-up, I was actually goign to do something similiar this winter when I switch my system over to 1". It was previously plumbed as 3/4 which caused even more of a restriction, can't wait for the upgrade. make sure you keep up the R&D, it's appreciated! Between you and Chpthril, the rest of us can sit back and benefit from your hard work! HA!

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Bad05 View Post
      Between you and Chpthril, the rest of us can sit back and benefit from your hard work!
      Chpthril is a professional. I'm just playing around. {grin}

      Comment


        #4
        Those Fly High fittings are actually 1-1/8" and 1-1/8" Y's are easy to find. So that solves the thick wall/narrow ID problem.

        Mikes Liquid Audio: Knowledge Experience Customer Service you can trust-KICKER WetSounds ACME props FlyHigh Custom Ballast Clarion LiquidLumens LEDs Roswell Wave Deflector And More

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          #5
          Originally posted by chpthril View Post
          Those Fly High fittings are actually 1-1/8" and 1-1/8" Y's are easy to find.
          See, that's why you're the professional!

          I was looking in the plumbing supply chain. I didn't consider that there might be something marine specific. Frankly, I never think of 1.125 since it's so nonstandard. I'll follow up on the Jamestown link. Thanks!

          Edit: Turns out Rule also makes a T in 1.125. I've now found a source that is half the cost of Jamestown. The T's are even cheaper. I'll get one of each and compare.
          Last edited by IDBoating; 09-09-2011, 02:41 AM.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by chpthril
            Those Fly High fittings are actually 1-1/8" and 1-1/8"
            Sadly, the hose connecting the fittings is 1.0 inch. I have yet to find 1.125 hose with a smooth inside surface; they all seem to be that cheap corrugated bilge pump garbage. Know of any high quality, smoothbore 1.125 hose suitable for ballast use?

            Originally posted by WABoating View Post
            Turns out Rule also makes a T in 1.125.
            This morning I contacted a supplier of these T's and Y's and had them measure the ID while I was on the phone. To my delight, they are at least 0.90 inches. That's a huge increase over the Schedule 40's and 80's. Very promising indeed.

            I've ordered one of each. Research will continue when they arrive.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by WABoating View Post
              Sadly, the hose connecting the fittings is 1.0 inch. I have yet to find 1.125 hose with a smooth inside surface; they all seem to be that cheap corrugated bilge pump garbage. Know of any high quality, smoothbore 1.125 hose suitable for ballast use?



              This morning I contacted a supplier of these T's and Y's and had them measure the ID while I was on the phone. To my delight, they are at least 0.90 inches. That's a huge increase over the Schedule 40's and 80's. Very promising indeed.

              I've ordered one of each. Research will continue when they arrive.
              Ive never looked for 1.125 hose being that most of the fittings I use are 1.0 and the rest are 1.125. IMO, its easier to stretch 1.0 hose over a 1.125 barb, then it is to clamp 1.125 hose down on a 1.0 fitting.

              Besides, in my testing, there was not a huge flow rate diff between .75 hose and 1.0 hose. The slowdown came with the fittings. So, in a round about way, the 1.0 is only used in order to avoid the .75 fittings.
              Mikes Liquid Audio: Knowledge Experience Customer Service you can trust-KICKER WetSounds ACME props FlyHigh Custom Ballast Clarion LiquidLumens LEDs Roswell Wave Deflector And More

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by chpthril View Post
                IMO, its easier to stretch 1.0 hose over a 1.125 barb, then it is to clamp 1.125 hose down on a 1.0 fitting.
                Agreed, but if the pump's output is 1.125 (Rule 29B), and as you point out the Fly High fittings are 1.125, and the Rule T's and Y's we're now talking about are 1.125... it would seem that everything past the pump is 1.125 at least on the fill side of the sac.

                Comment


                  #9
                  A quick thanks

                  Thanks to both of you two for all the insight and information involving set up and installation of these ballast systems. I am parts/service manager at Family Marine in Willmar MN. We are going into our 3rd year of being a Tige' dealer and we have just recently started to become a dealer/installer of FlyHigh Fat Sacs. This information you provide has been and will continue be invaluable for me.

                  As I learn more and we do more projects/service work involving Tige' boats and especially custom ballast systems I will do my best to try and be of assistance to you all as well. As for now, I will sit back and learn!

                  Thanks very much guys.

                  Shaun

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by dreamintige' View Post
                    As for now, I will sit back and learn!
                    That's what we're doing too - learning and sharing information!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      1 1/8" is the standard size for bilge pumps, which is why all of these pump manufacturers use it for their aerator pumps and fittings. You can fine 1 1/8" bilge hose, but it's the cheap corrugated stuff that kinds, tears and bends way too easily to be used in a ballast system.

                      Thanks for compiling that info Richard, it looks like that is an option that is worth exploring.
                      WakeMAKERS.com | WakePROPS.com

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jason@wakemakers.com View Post
                        1 1/8" is the standard size for bilge pumps, which is why all of these pump manufacturers use it for their aerator pumps and fittings.
                        I know that, but the root question is WHAT IDIOT DECIDED TO USE A COMPLETELY NONSTANDARD HOSE SIZE FOR BILGE PUMPS BACK IN THE DAY?!? Every time I have to heat/stretch/pry/curse standard hose onto one of these nonstandard fittings, I send fresh hatred toward the memory of that unknown idiot.

                        There were plenty of standard hose sizes from which to choose. But no, somebody thought that 1.0 inches (the next smallest standard) was waaay too small and 1.25 inches (the next largest standard) was waaaay too large. That 1/8th of an inch made so much difference they had to create a nonstandard hose size. (Unless it's a standard metric size, which I've never heard suggested by anyone... 28.575mm doesn't sound like any sort of standard to me!)

                        Sorry for the rant, but I just can't believe that 1/8th of an inch was so vitally, crucially important that the marine industry had to be condemned for eternity into dealing with this oddball fitting/hose size. GRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrr.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by jason@wakemakers.com View Post
                          Thanks for compiling that info Richard, it looks like that is an option that is worth exploring.
                          More info will be coming soon. As mentioned, I have a sample of each fitting on the way. Once they arrive I'll repeat the flow tests and see if there is a gain. If I get to my completely emotional threshold of 20% faster for a few dollars per sac, I'll consider it a win.

                          By the way, thanks for adding a few more fittings onto my custom Fly High fat sacs. They have made these tests much easier!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            You know what probably happened? They started out with 1" but the fittings were also 1" and people complained that it was too hard to get the 1" hose over the 1" fitting so they bumped the hose to 1 1/8". LOL!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Timmy! View Post
                              You know what probably happened? They started out with 1" but the fittings were also 1" and people complained that it was too hard to get the 1" hose over the 1" fitting so they bumped the hose to 1 1/8". LOL!
                              Continuing that concept: Next, they bumped the fittings to 1.125 because of leakage issues.

                              Here's hoping they repeat the above two steps one more time. First they can go to 1.25 inch hose, and then to 1.25 inch fittings, and we'll then be back to industry standards!

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