Recommended intake location on a 24Ve?

[chpthril]

I've researched that. The common T1200, part number 4660-1, comes with NPSM threads. These are straight threads intended for mechanical connection only and are not typically used in liquid applications (don't ask me why a pump would have such threads!).

But there is also a T1200 part number 4661-1. It comes with the much more standard NPT threads. It is the same in every way except for the thread type. NPT is what you see on virtually every pipe and fitting. It would mate with standard PVC fittings.

So the question is, can we find 4661-1's?

You will find that in the boating industry, straight threads are very common on plumbing, where as pipe threads are used in std plumbing.

The problem with the T1200 is not the NPT or the NST, but the odd-ball size of 1-1/8". You just cant find many things to mate with it. Now, supposedly, Attwood have a 1-1/8 threaded x 1" hose-barb fitting for the T1200, but I havent heard back from them on a part number. Even though Fly High makes the 1-1/8 x 3/4 adapter, I feel the restriction on the 3/4" would make it not worth the cost of the T1200 + the adapter. i will know shortly though.

[chpthril]

Don't some bags have multiple fill/drain fittings? You could parallel the bag's fittings to the pump to overcome the bag's 3/4 inch limitation (i.e. parallel the top fittings to the fill pump, and parallel the drain fittings to the drain pump).

Fly High's standard sacs come with 3 fittings - 2 on top an done at the bottem edge of the end wall. For a typical aerator setup, one on the will be for the fill hose, the other top will be for the vent/overflow hose and that leaves the 3rd for the drin.

The Enzo, and I think one or two other non-std sacs come with more then the typical 3 fittings and a custom can have as many as is needed and placed where ever the designer wants them. You can add extra ports by installing a plastic thru-hull to the sac, but it's tricky.

[majestic]

[QUOTE=chpthril;445815]

Tsunami 1200's have a 1-1/8 fitting that is hard to mate up. Most have decided not to mess with and go with the T-800's. I did find that the difference in 1" hose versus 3/4 is very noticable on fill and drain times.

Awhile back, I did a quick and very unscientific test between the T800 and T1200 pumps and 1" hose. The time it took to drain a 5gal bucket was 5 seconds different. There was also very little difference in drain time between the T800 using 3/4 hose stretched over the threads and the T1200 using 1" hose. The only real difference came when I put on the T800's supplied 3/4" fitting and again used 3/4" hose. Now the flow dropped quit a bit, but this was more in part to the 5/8" opening in the 3/4 hose-barb fitting.

I hope to continue this later, but use a ballast sac, a thru-hull pickup and also one for the drain. I want to closely match the actual hose length and height of the sac relative to the pickup as well as the drain thru-hulls distance from the drain pump.

I fell that I will find that the added flow rate of the T1200 may not be worth the added hassle of dealing with it's 1-1/8" threaded inlet. At the end of the day, the sacs 3/4 inlet is the bottleneck. Fly High makes a 1-1/8 x 3/4 threaded adaptor for the T1200, I want to see what it's effects are when used on the inlet with a 3/4 thru-hull pickup.



The both are similar in design, so I dont know why either would work better one way then the other. As long as the pump is low enough in the bilge to get water into the body and the outlet is oriented so air can purge, I dont see why either couldn't be used either way depending on the boats design and space available.

Good Discussion. If my weekend trip didn't get rainied out I would be doing all kinds of R&D right now. I will do this test this week with my boat;

I will time the filling of my 1000lb surf sacks with 3/4 vs 1" and see what happens.

[majestic]

I've researched that. The common T1200, part number 4660-1, comes with NPSM threads. These are straight threads intended for mechanical connection only and are not typically used in liquid applications (don't ask me why a pump would have such threads!).

But there is also a T1200 part number 4661-1. It comes with the much more standard NPT threads. It is the same in every way except for the thread type. NPT is what you see on virtually every pipe and fitting. It would mate with standard PVC fittings.

So the question is, can we find 4661-1's?

http://www.backtoboating.com/scripts...p?idproduct=80

[IDBoating]

http://www.backtoboating.com/scripts...p?idproduct=80

Well, that was easy. Thanks!

Hmm... I wonder if the threads on the input and output are the same? The photos in that webpage you referenced shows a T1200 but it's not exactly clear if the threads match.

Edit: Answered my own question. There's a very nice reference link on that same page that makes it very clear. They are the same.

[chpthril]

Well, that was easy. Thanks!

Hmm... I wonder if the threads on the input and output are the same? The photos in that webpage you referenced shows a T1200 but it's not exactly clear if the threads match.

Edit: Answered my own question. There's a very nice reference link on that same page that makes it very clear. They are the same.

Let me know when you are ready, I can beat that $53.80 price for the 3.5"L NPST inlet. Or you can go with the Rule 405FC 1100 GPH pump. It has a 3/4" NPST. They cost a little more then the T1200, but way easier to work with.

[jason@wakemakers.com]

Hi Richard, good to see that you're doing your homework (not that I expected anything less)!

NPS is used regularly in the marine industry because it allows the length of thread to be shortened without any problems. A tapered fitting will not mate correctly if total length of the fitting has been modified at all, so for thru-hulls and pumps it's pretty common to see NPS(M) threaded connections. That is the same reason why it is not acceptable to connect a standard ball valve directly to most readily available mushroom thru-hulls; the ball valve is NPT, the thru-hull is NPS so that it's total length can be modified based on the space constraints in the bilge of the boat). It's for that reason that we have custom thru-hulls made for us that are NPS that blends to NPT at the end so they can be used with a NPT ball valve.

We have the 1 1/8" -> 1.25" or 1" adapter for the T1200 on out site here: http://www.wakemakers.com/attwood-elbow-1-inch.html

We can order either version of the pump, but because the NPS thread pattern allows you to modify the length of the inlet thread, and because there are more adapters available for the NPS version, that's what we use on all of our installs.

We've done quite a bit of testing between the 800GPH Tsunami and 1200GPH tsunami, and ultimately it boils down the amount of water you're talking about moving. With an Enzo bag, or one of our custom Tige surf bags there is a reasonable amount of speed gained by using 1200GPH pumps, but most of our customers will elect to use two 800GPH pumps for filling, and two for draining, instead of a single 800 for each function. That ends up being about the same cost with everything factored in, and is much easier to install. We have had a couple of customers go with as many as four 1200s for filling and draining (eight pumps total for each bag), which is incredible fast, but takes some serious creativity to fit in the boat.

Rule is notorious for over-rating their pumps (there's no third party organization that approves the rating manufacturer's put on their pumps, so they can list whatever they want). The output of every single pump Rule has sent us for testing is significantly less than their actual output. That combined with the fact that they're not very reliable makes it an easy choice to sell our customers a product that will last and is fast.

Here's a post on our blog about from a couple of years ago that covers the pros and cons regarding aerator and flexible vane impeller pumps, it's worth a read if you're on the fence about which one is best for your application.

I'll be up in Seattle in a couple of weeks, so let me know if you want to get together to brainstorm on the system.

[IDBoating]

NPS is used regularly in the marine industry because it allows the length of thread to be shortened without any problems. A tapered fitting will not mate correctly if total length of the fitting has been modified at all, so for thru-hulls and pumps it's pretty common to see NPS(M) threaded connections. That is the same reason why it is not acceptable to connect a standard ball valve directly to most readily available mushroom thru-hulls; the ball valve is NPT, the thru-hull is NPS so that it's total length can be modified based on the space constraints in the bilge of the boat). It's for that reason that we have custom thru-hulls made for us that are NPS that blends to NPT at the end so they can be used with a NPT ball valve.

Awesome data! (Not that I expected anything less! {grin})

We have the 1 1/8" -> 1.25" or 1" adapter for the T1200

Noted. I suspect I'll be buying some.

one of our custom Tige surf bags

Didn't know you had custom Tige bags. Your site mentions kits for a variety of brands but not Tige. The kit you wrote up for me used the Enzo bags. Can you elaborate on these custom Tige bags, please?

there is a reasonable amount of speed gained by using 1200GPH pumps, but most of our customers will elect to use two 800GPH pumps for filling, and two for draining, instead of a single 800 for each function.

Did you mean two 800's instead of a single 1200?

My current plan, based on your recommendations combined with thoughts of my own (always dangerous), is two 1200's for filling and two 1200's for draining, per bag. The Enzo's have three top and two bottom fittings, which would leave one top fitting for venting.

I'll be up in Seattle in a couple of weeks, so let me know if you want to get together to brainstorm on the system.

I'd love to, but you'll still be ~300 miles away from me. I'm in Spokane/Coeur d'Alene, on the eastern border of WA or the ID panhandle.

[chpthril]

[QUOTE]

NPS is used regularly in the marine industry because it allows the length of thread to be shortened without any problems. A tapered fitting will not mate correctly if total length of the fitting has been modified at all, so for thru-hulls and pumps it's pretty common to see NPS(M) threaded connections. That is the same reason why it is not acceptable to connect a standard ball valve directly to most readily available mushroom thru-hulls; the ball valve is NPT, the thru-hull is NPS so that it's total length can be modified based on the space constraints in the bilge of the boat). It's for that reason that we have custom thru-hulls made for us that are NPS that blends to NPT at the end so they can be used with a NPT ball valve.

What is being described is a thru-hull that has tapered NPT at the end, then at some point down becomes NPS threads at the base. Marine Hardware makes these as a standard thru-hull, my distributor stocks the common sizes. I see how having the NPT at the top makes it better to mate with common ball-valves that are NPT, but what happens when you cut down the thru-hull threads to shorten it? Dosent it then become NPS threads like a regular thru-hull? At this point, you have the very situation you say you avoid by having a custom made thru-hull.

We have the 1 1/8" -> 1.25" or 1" adapter for the T1200 on out site here: http://www.wakemakers.com/attwood-elbow-1-inch.html

That fitting it the one that is actually supplied with the T1200 pump. It has an OD of 1.125" on the barbs, as it it actually intended for 1-1/8" hose and not 1". But, with a heat-gun, 1" can be relaxed and slid over the barbed end. A little silicone sealer helps the hose slide over, then helps seal a little bit.

We can order either version of the pump, but because the NPS thread pattern allows you to modify the length of the inlet thread, and because there are more adapters available for the NPS version, that's what we use on all of our installs.

I agree, go with the 3.25" length NPS inlet and cut it down to suite your needs

We've done quite a bit of testing between the 800GPH Tsunami and 1200GPH tsunami, and ultimately it boils down the amount of water you're talking about moving. With an Enzo bag, or one of our custom Tige surf bags there is a reasonable amount of speed gained by using 1200GPH pumps, but most of our customers will elect to use two 800GPH pumps for filling, and two for draining, instead of a single 800 for each function. That ends up being about the same cost with everything factored in, and is much easier to install. We have had a couple of customers go with as many as four 1200s for filling and draining (eight pumps total for each bag), which is incredible fast, but takes some serious creativity to fit in the boat.

Rule is notorious for over-rating their pumps (there's no third party organization that approves the rating manufacturer's put on their pumps, so they can list whatever they want). The output of every single pump Rule has sent us for testing is significantly less than their actual output. That combined with the fact that they're not very reliable makes it an easy choice to sell our customers a product that will last and is fast.

Did some real-world testing on the Rule and the T1200, and I was a bit surprised at the results. Not only did I find the Rule to not be over rated, I found it to be faster then the T1200. Although it was not a lot faster, I will have to give the edge to the more expensive Rule 1100. It is far easier to mate it's 3/4 threads with standard fittings, and when the W747 fitting is added in on the T1200 (so the T1200 can mate with 3/4" fittings) the T1200's flow drops more, as well as the cost per fill pump goes up by $7.00 for the fitting.

http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13621

[jason@wakemakers.com]

Didn't know you had custom Tige bags. Your site mentions kits for a variety of brands but not Tige. The kit you wrote up for me used the Enzo bags. Can you elaborate on these custom Tige bags, please?

We have custom bags for over 100 boat models in our database that our slowly making their way onto the site. Shoot me a message about your 24V to get specs on the bag for that setup. I believe we have every Tige model from the last 10 years templated, but I'll have to double check on that.

Did you mean two 800's instead of a single 1200?

Of course! That's what I get for trying to watch football out of one eye.

My current plan, based on your recommendations combined with thoughts of my own (always dangerous), is two 1200's for filling and two 1200's for draining, per bag. The Enzo's have three top and two bottom fittings, which would leave one top fitting for venting.

We've had a few customers go with that setup, and you're looking at around 4.75 minutes to fill or drain. The only issue with that is a single vent will not flow enough capacity to keep up with both fill pumps when the bag is full, which could be a problem. It just depends on how daring you are.

Our custom bags all have at least six fittings, so you'll be fine if you use them.

I'd love to, but you'll still be ~300 miles away from me. I'm in Spokane/Coeur d'Alene, on the eastern border of WA or the ID panhandle.

I knew that! Again, I should have looked in our system to double check. I've been thinking about a ski trip up that way this winter, so it may still be possible.

What is being described is a thru-hull that has tapered NPT at the end, then at some point down becomes NPS threads at the base.

Yep, that's exactly what I said.

I see how having the NPT at the top makes it better to mate with common ball-valves that are NPT, but what happens when you cut down the thru-hull threads to shorten it? Dosent it then become NPS threads like a regular thru-hull? At this point, you have the very situation you say you avoid by having a custom made thru-hull.

There's no way to change the length of an NPT threaded part, the major diameter of the threads is less at the end than it is at the base, so the male part will physically not fit into the female part. So that's a big no-no. A blended thread fitting will allow you to shorten the length to fit that application and use a seacock, which is how all thru-hull connections should be made up (very few people in the inboard market will pay for this type of connection though), OR use the thru-hull in its original length with a ball valve (which again, is technically not the right way to make up a thru-hull connection, but is what most people want to do).

The dangerous connection is to modify the length of the thru-hull (which means you're working with NPS threads), and then try to mate an NPT fitting (either street elbow or ball valve) onto it. You'll get a few threads to mate, but it's not very secure. I think there's a post on our blog that talks about this topic in greater detail.

That fitting it the one that is actually supplied with the T1200 pump. It has an OD of 1.125" on the barbs, as it it actually intended for 1-1/8" hose and not 1". But, with a heat-gun, 1" can be relaxed and slid over the barbed end. A little silicone sealer helps the hose slide over, then helps seal a little bit.

Oops, thanks for catching that!

Did some real-world testing on the Rule and the T1200, and I was a bit surprised at the results. Not only did I find the Rule to not be over rated, I found it to be faster then the T1200. Although it was not a lot faster, I will have to give the edge to the more expensive Rule 1100. It is far easier to mate it's 3/4 threads with standard fittings, and when the W747 fitting is added in on the T1200 (so the T1200 can mate with 3/4" fittings) the T1200's flow drops more, as well as the cost per fill pump goes up by $7.00 for the fitting.

http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13621

Really cool post, thanks for sharing! The crazy thing is how different the numbers that we achieve are (not just the absolute value, but the delta between the different pumps). Obviously there will be differences in shear speed based on the setup of the test, but it's the relative differences between the pumps that is interesting to me.

[IDBoating]

A blended thread fitting will allow you to shorten the length to fit that application and use a seacock, which is how all thru-hull connections should be made up

I completely agree, but I've never once seen anyone discuss seacocks and wakeboat ballast. Indeed, yours is the first reference I've ever seen to true seacocks on a forum like this.

[Dave K]

IMO...personally I think the debate of how FAST bags will fill is irrelavent really. So what if it takes 7 minutes instead of 5 or 9 minutes instead of 6? i would rather go with 800gph or even 500gph, rather than the problem of the larger diameter problem of the 1200's. There always something to do in the boat before the boarder jumping into the water!

Anyone use the Johnson/Mayfair pump?

[jason@wakemakers.com]

I agree Dave, there is a tendency to scrutinize the numbers on paper, and be obsessed with the absolute fill times, but in reality, the convenience of being able to fill while underway more than makes up for a 10% reduction in speed. And besides, even if you pull someone up and the system is still filling, the worst case is that the wake gets better for the first couple of minutes.

Definitely don't drop down to the 500GPH pumps though, that's long enough, with no convenience benefit from an install standpoint that you'll start to get very frustrated.

We've tested Mayfair aerator pumps and they offer not appreciable benefit over the other manufacturers out there. It's not a bad product, but it's also not any better than Attwood or Rule.

[Dave K]

With 800gph we had in our old boat it gives me time to get a coke, sandwich, cheese, and kubasaw out LOL

[jason@wakemakers.com]

Too bad the boat can do all of that for you!