Recommended intake location on a 24Ve?

[IDBoating]

My new 2009 24Ve does not come with factory ballast, so I'm already researching adding it myself. Where does the factory put their intake? Where do aftermarket installers put it? I believe the engine's cooling water intake is on the bottom of the hull (i.e. not on the transom), but the thought of cutting a hole in the hull of a BRAND NEW BOAT creeps me out a little. I want to make sure I do this right!

Thanks!

[skyski_tige]

On my 2008 RZ2. The intake is just above the taps plate on the back of the boat.

[Iwndr]

On my 2008 RZ2. The intake is just above the taps plate on the back of the boat.

X2 on a 2008 Z1

[Ewok]

I think I have 3 intakes on the bottom of my boat for the ballast. They are on the left/right of the drive shaft just forward of the transmission. You can reach them through the access door in the rear bench seat. On all the other threads I have read about adding ballast, practice on a piece of plywood before you drill, to make sure you have the correct size drill bit.

Like I said before you can crawl all around my boat when I get it up there, mid Dec.

[chpthril]

Starting in 09, Tige started using individual 3/4" mushrooms. So, you would see 4 intakes....one for each pump.

Pre-09, Tige had a common manifold with a shroom in the transom. This configuration was prone to vapor lock and could not be filled with the boat much above no-wake speed.

IMO, having individual pickups offers more flexibility then a common manifold.

As far as placement goes, try to stay away from directly infront of the Tri-Ducer pickup, as turbulence and air bubbles have been known to effect the speedo and depth readings. Also, dry-fit the pump/manifold assembly before drilling......need to make sure it will all fit and the hoses can be connected before cutting the hole(s)

Pumps: you have two choices......Aerator type live-well pumps or Impeller type reversible pumps. Both have their pros and cons. A search should yield a number of discussions on the 2. If you dont find any threads, post back up and I will recap my thoughts on the two type. BTW, I recommend and install both.

[IDBoating]

Pre-09, Tige had a common manifold with a shroom in the transom. This configuration was prone to vapor lock and could not be filled with the boat much above no-wake speed.

Hmm... I was hoping to minimize the number of holes in that brand new hull, so I was considering a really large intake and manifold setup. Guess not.

IMO, having individual pickups offers more flexibility then a common manifold.

Why? As long as the intake is large enough to not starve multiple pumps operating simultaneously, how would it be more flexible?

As far as placement goes, try to stay away from directly infront of the Tri-Ducer pickup, as turbulence and air bubbles have been known to effect the speedo and depth readings.

Amen to that. I fought that problem on my jetboat's pickup.

Where is the triducer located? Is it external, or a through-hull epoxied inside?

Pumps: you have two choices......Aerator type live-well pumps or Impeller type reversible pumps. Both have their pros and cons. A search should yield a number of discussions on the 2. If you dont find any threads, post back up and I will recap my thoughts on the two type. BTW, I recommend and install both.

I'll search, but if you feel like reposting I wouldn't complain {grin}. I'm leaning toward aerators, separate ones for fill and drain. The T1200 pumps have way more volume than any reversible I've found and are far less expensive. I'm actually considering running pumps in parallel to increase fill/drain speed, too.

Thanks!

[chpthril]

Hmm... I was hoping to minimize the number of holes in that brand new hull, so I was considering a really large intake and manifold setup. Guess not.

Why? As long as the intake is large enough to not starve multiple pumps operating simultaneously, how would it be more flexible?

A 1-1/4" common manifold holding 3 pumps can have a foot print of about 18" x 12". That's a lot of room that's needed to house it, allowing access to the shut-off as well as being able to properly orient the pumps and get the hoses on. The aerator pumps need to be as low as possible in the bilge so the pumps will prime.

Have single shrooms and pump assemblies allows you to make use of multiple small spaces by placing the pumps here and there in the bilge. Only real con IMO, is that 3 pickups and ball-valve setups does cost a little more then a single 1-1/4 pickup and ball-valve.

Amen to that. I fought that problem on my jetboat's pickup.

Where is the triducer located? Is it external, or a through-hull epoxied inside?

It's a thru-hull type and is located on the starboard side just below the engine's oil filter.

I'll search, but if you feel like reposting I wouldn't complain {grin}. I'm leaning toward aerators, separate ones for fill and drain. The T1200 pumps have way more volume than any reversible I've found and are far less expensive. I'm actually considering running pumps in parallel to increase fill/drain speed, too.

Thanks!

Here are a couple threads on the 2 pump types.

http://www.tigeowners.com/forum/show...rator+impeller

http://tigeowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8366

Aerator Pros:
Inexpensive - 6-7 pumps for a 3-sac system can be had for what one Impeller pump

Reliable - These pumps will not burn up if accidentally left on.

Quite and low current draw - 3-6 amps compared to 12 amps

Replaceable motor cartridge for easier service repair V's pulling whole pump out of system.

Cons:
Need to be mounted below the water line for the fill pumps and directly to the sac (or right off it) for draining as these pumps are not self priming and will not draw water.

Flow rate drops off quicker then impeller pumps as plumbing runs get longer and head pressure builds.

Not reversible, so sac needs dedicated fill and drain pumps. This adds to the plumbing and hose needed.

Impeller Pros:
Self priming - these pumps can draw water from above the water line, so they can be mounted just about anywhere.

Less flow rate loss due to line length and head pressure

Reversible, so a single pump per sac setup can be done. This can reduce the amount of hose, fittings and thru-hulls by draining right back out the intake, but I prefer to divert the drain flow to a gunwale mounted thru-hull so you have an audible and visual sign that the sac is still draining.

Cons:
Cost - Retail is $240 p/pump

Prone to impeller failures from running dry

High current draw compared to aerators

[IDBoating]

The aerator pumps need to be as low as possible in the bilge so the pumps will prime.

That's one reason I thought about trying to put the intakes way back by the transom - to guarantee they were below the waterline and therefore self-priming.

{The triducer is} a thru-hull type and is located on the starboard side just below the engine's oil filter.

Just to be crystal clear: Does it physically pass through the hull, or ultrasonically shoot through an otherwise unperforated hull? If the latter, I don't understand how it reads temperature and speed.

High current draw compared to aerators

...for a given water volume, I presume. I wonder why. Same amount of work is being done.

Thanks!

[IDBoating]

Also, I'd like to hear more about the vapor lock problems on late model Tige factory systems. Exactly what is happening there?

[majestic]

Tsunami 1200's have a 1-1/8 fitting that is hard to mate up. Most have decided not to mess with and go with the T-800's. I did find that the difference in 1" hose versus 3/4 is very noticable on fill and drain times.

@Chpthril- I have gone round and round about the individual thru-hulls vs manifold. My question is on the Factory system the Johnson pumps are mounted vertical where as the tsunami's like to be layed on the sides. How would you overcome that? Would it be thru-hull, elbow, shutoff then pump?

[chpthril]

That's one reason I thought about trying to put the intakes way back by the transom - to guarantee they were below the waterline and therefore self-priming.

If you put the intakes through the transom, as Tige did up to 09, you will have the same downside.....you will not be able to fill as you are running from the ramp to your riding spot. Once the boat gets up some speed, water is no longer cover the transom wall, so no way to draw water, regardless of which pumps you are using. No, dont get me wrong, this is not a "wrong" way to build a system, just one downside to this method. if you dont mind the wait time to fill once you reach the riding spot, or an idle speed cruise till the sacs are filled, then no problem.

The next obsticle is where to place the pumps when mounted back that far. With the tiller arm and exhaust pipes, there is not a ton of room. This would be hard to do a common manifold setup, as illustrated by the Tige setup. They had about a 24" hose from the intake to the manifold. I think this length of hose, as well as manifold/pump angles, was the reason we saw so many vapor lock issues with that design. Keep in mind, if you use the aerator pumps, they have to be mounted right to the pickup. You cant remote-mount them with a hose connecting them to the pickup, at least I dont think it would be effective and would probably be prone to vapor-lock.

Just to be crystal clear: Does it physically pass through the hull, or ultrasonically shoot through an otherwise unperforated hull? If the latter, I don't understand how it reads temperature and speed.

The tri-ducer is a thru-hull unit. There is a big hole in the hull in which the tri-ducer passes through. Under the boat, you will see the speedo paddle wheel.

...for a given water volume, I presume. I wonder why. Same amount of work is being done.

Thanks!

The impeller pump is a Positive displacement pump. The impeller has multiple veins that are in content contact with the impeller housing. This friction requires a large DC motor to drive. This in turn, draws more current. About 12A's. The aerator pumps are a Centrifugal pump type. It's impeller is free spinning in the housing, so no added friction. It uses RPMs as it's means of moving the water. This is why the flow rate drops as the length of the hose gets longer. The weight of "lifting" the water gets to a point that the pumps impeller just spins in the water, kinda like prop-slip on a boat, and flow drops. You can dead-head or dry-run an aerator with no ill effects to the pump.

Also, I'd like to hear more about the vapor lock problems on late model Tige factory systems. Exactly what is happening there?

The manifold was lower then the pickup, so each time the boat was launched, the incoming water would trap air in the manifold, not allowing it to escape out the tru-hull pick in the transom. The was compounded by the angle of the pump's outlet. They were oriented in a way that also hindered the air from burping out through the pump intake. If the air couldn't purge, water could not get to the pump body. Since these pumps are not self-priming, the impeller would just spin in the trapped air. I also think that one other down side to this design is that every time the boat gets up on plain, water would again exit the manifold.

[IDBoating]

Tsunami 1200's have a 1-1/8 fitting that is hard to mate up. Most have decided not to mess with and go with the T-800's.

I've researched that. The common T1200, part number 4660-1, comes with NPSM threads. These are straight threads intended for mechanical connection only and are not typically used in liquid applications (don't ask me why a pump would have such threads!).

But there is also a T1200 part number 4661-1. It comes with the much more standard NPT threads. It is the same in every way except for the thread type. NPT is what you see on virtually every pipe and fitting. It would mate with standard PVC fittings.

So the question is, can we find 4661-1's?

[IDBoating]

Keep in mind, if you use the aerator pumps, they have to be mounted right to the pickup. You cant remote-mount them with a hose connecting them to the pickup, at least I dont think it would be effective and would probably be prone to vapor-lock.

That's interesting. The Attwood installation guide shows the T-series pumps being mounted via a hose. They caution to avoid dips due to the airlock problem, but their own instructions show hose being used. They also show the pumps being mounted "lying down" using a bracket they sell for the purpose.

Here's a link to their instructions:

http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfil...erator-eng.pdf

The impeller pump is a Positive displacement pump...

Ah, got it. I didn't realize they were different pump designs. I'm very familiar with pump theory, just didn't realize they were not the same. Thanks for the clarification.

The manifold was lower then the pickup, so each time the boat was launched, the incoming water would trap air in the manifold, not allowing it to escape out the tru-hull pick in the transom.

Obviously, the right way to do it is to insure a consistently increasing "altitude" from intake, through hoses/pipes, through pump, to pump outlet. Any air would then naturally rise through the pump body as the boat was lowered into the water, forced up by the incoming water.

Given that, the trick would be mounting the PUMP BODIES so they remain below the waterline even when (at least) idling. Tige (today, at least, according to the factory) mounts their factory pumps forward of the V-drive transmission. That area is going to rise up as the hull works toward, but doesn't quite achieve, on-plane. Add the distance from the hull's wetted surface to the pump bodies, even with them mounted horizontally, and I can imagine the pumps getting above the waterline. Mounting them back nearer the transom (but still on the hull) would help solve that problem but as you note there is much less space back there.

[chpthril]

[QUOTE=majestic;445809]Tsunami 1200's have a 1-1/8 fitting that is hard to mate up. Most have decided not to mess with and go with the T-800's. I did find that the difference in 1" hose versus 3/4 is very noticable on fill and drain times.Awhile back, I did a quick and very unscientific test between the T800 and T1200 pumps and 1" hose. The time it took to drain a 5gal bucket was 5 seconds different. There was also very little difference in drain time between the T800 using 3/4 hose stretched over the threads and the T1200 using 1" hose. The only real difference came when I put on the T800's supplied 3/4" fitting and again used 3/4" hose. Now the flow dropped quit a bit, but this was more in part to the 5/8" opening in the 3/4 hose-barb fitting.

I hope to continue this later, but use a ballast sac, a thru-hull pickup and also one for the drain. I want to closely match the actual hose length and height of the sac relative to the pickup as well as the drain thru-hulls distance from the drain pump.

I fell that I will find that the added flow rate of the T1200 may not be worth the added hassle of dealing with it's 1-1/8" threaded inlet. At the end of the day, the sacs 3/4 inlet is the bottleneck. Fly High makes a 1-1/8 x 3/4 threaded adaptor for the T1200, I want to see what it's effects are when used on the inlet with a 3/4 thru-hull pickup.

@Chpthril- I have gone round and round about the individual thru-hulls vs manifold. My question is on the Factory system the Johnson pumps are mounted vertical where as the tsunami's like to be layed on the sides. How would you overcome that? Would it be thru-hull, elbow, shutoff then pump?

The both are similar in design, so I dont know why either would work better one way then the other. As long as the pump is low enough in the bilge to get water into the body and the outlet is oriented so air can purge, I dont see why either couldn't be used either way depending on the boats design and space available.

[IDBoating]

I fell that I will find that the added flow rate of the T1200 may not be worth the added hassle of dealing with it's 1-1/8" threaded inlet. At the end of the day, the sacs 3/4 inlet is the bottleneck.

Don't some bags have multiple fill/drain fittings? You could parallel the bag's fittings to the pump to overcome the bag's 3/4 inch limitation (i.e. parallel the top fittings to the fill pump, and parallel the drain fittings to the drain pump).