Wake shaper vs listing with ballast for surfing

[Nbalbo2010]

I am the proud new owner of a 2006 22ve. Only have 1 day on the water with it, but I am already very satisfied. The boat is not equipped with any ballast, but I borrowed a buddy's swell wakesurf shaper and got a clean surfable wave (TAPS on 4, perfect pass set to 6.8, 10 mph on the speedometer, 4 people in the boat). I know the boat will benefit from adding ballast, but my question is how much do I really need? My main issues with the recommended ballast (1200 lb L-shaped in the rear lockers, and 600 lbs in the nose) are as follows:

1. 90% of storage is lost
2. After spending ~$2500 for the custom sacs (plumbed in) , I'd need to spend another ~$500 on a new prop

Is it realistic to think I could get away with less ballast by using the wake shaper? Is it also true that listing isn't required if using the wake shaper? I'd really like to save my rear seat storage space and would prefer to not have to spend an additional $3k on top of the $28k I paid for the boat.

[sandm]

we listed my old 22ve. had the chpthril(mikes liquid audio) sack in the regular back corner. we never dialed in the goofy side as we didn't have any goofy riders. that 1200lb plus the 200lb hard tank and twin sacs in the nose made a killer wave. ve's don't need a ton of nose weight. we tried to surf the boat with the factory hard tank and the 400lb rear factory sac and it sucked. it makes a wave you can ride but as you progress you will want more weight.
if you are concerned about losing storage space, mike might have some recommendations for a 900lb rear locker sac and use lead to make up the difference.

either way if you do the work yourself you are looking at 12-1500 and you are pretty close on the 2500 installed. shop around for a good used prop on the forums and you can find them for 3-350 regularly.

[BCRider]

If you really want a good wave you are going to have to say goodbye to the rear storage. I'm constantly switching life jackets, wetsuits (this time of year) from rear locker to rear locker. Isn't much way around it IMO. Can you get away with smaller bags? Yes, but you'll then have a smaller wave making it harder to ride and also requiring an over sized board. All my bags go in my passenger locker and my cooler is usually in the walkway or on the seat behind the driver. I also have a sub box in the passenger side. Spare life jackets, bumpers, spare ropes etc all go in the locker in front of the driver. The other thing you can do for yourself is rip out the useless cooler under the passenger seat and make it more storage. I keep lead, tool box, compressor, fire extinguisher, and some other things in here.

The VE definitely does better listed over with a wake shaper rather than running more flat. If you want to get your boat closer to where the newer boats perform then you are going to have to invest in a ballast system. You can start with dumping pumps over the side but I will tell you it gets old quick. The best thing I did was plumb in my 1200lbs sac to dual fill/drain. Being able to just press a button and watch the boat start to lean over is life changing. If you a DIY'er it's not all that hard to plumb in it just takes some time and patience. Mike (Chpthril) is a great asset for all the hardware you need.

Add Fresh Air Exhaust to your list too after the prop and ballast.lol. Welcome to owing a boat. Did you really think the spending stopped once you got the boat!?lol. It just started my friend. Soon, it will be louder stereo, fancy LED lights, EVA Decking, etc, etc. It never stops. I tell everyone half my hobby is going out on the boat and the other half is doing all the add-ons.

[Wakeman22]

All I have to add or say is exactly what the previous posts have said. The 've throws a great wave. Add more weight it gets better. Add the list even better. Add the wake shaper and it is even better. Keep the weight as much and as far into the back corner as possible and it will be sweet. Oh yeah... Did someone mention a GSA system. Lol.

[duffymahoney]

I was pretty against the suck gates for a while, but then I found out that a hybrid works great on my 24v. So listing and suck gate. I fill offside about 50%, prior I would fill offside 0%.

[Nbalbo2010]

Thanks all for the input! I have been surfing with 4 ppl in the boat and a swell wakesurf creator with pretty good success for the last few weeks. Found a deal on some fatsacs for next to nothing that I'm going to try out, then will hopefully get custom sacs plumbed in next season.

[NICKYPOO]

FAE and MLA, a TigeOwners standard.

Just to throw two more cents in, I miss buddy’s smaller set up. He went from 400s to 750s but has yet to do any front ballast yet so it kinda sucks. With both 750s full and his custom gate, he has to pack everyone up front just to get it on plane. His storage is basically gone in the lockers and now his platform is hanging in the wake again just killing the lip. I hate driving it now as well. Once he puts the front sac in I know it will perk right up but it’s another dedicated system. With the 400s it was so simple. Just fill ‘em and forget ‘em. All he had to do switch the sucgate and go. Still had room for vests and soft coolers and what not. It drove great and the wake, no matter what you did, was great. It wasn’t huge but it was always perfectly shaped. It was fun as hell. He crossed a line with the 750s and now needs a bow system and maybe another new prop. Already put a new helm seat in with a bolster so his wife can see while driving. I just miss the simplicity of the smaller system. He did upgrade all his fittings with the new sacs so he switch out bags at anytime. I’m trying to talk him into smaller sacs. I’m just saying, you don’t need a giant wake to go have fun. A nice wake is nicer on everything not to mention everyone else on the lake.

[Bamer]

The word boat is actually and acronym for:
Bust
Out
Another
Thousand


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[Wakeman22]

Listen to duff and Nicky they have been around for a long time in these boats and this model. So have I. The ve's were extinsively tested and the ideal setup was found. We all discussed what to do next and all did ballast install. This was before any surf system like surfgate, NSS, swell, GSA, tabs and suck gates. We dialed our boats in. Through weight placement and amount. Every system out on the market now needs to be dialed in. Even with pre set profiles.

My suggestion has always been. Play with the whole system's components including speed, taps, people, ballast sacks, adding a suckgate or other surf system. Maxed out does not equal better. Change the setup and move weight around, where passengers are comfortable, to see how the wake changes. Read some threads from that era to learn how we set our boats up. We found the ideal setup. Look at he wake system eras and suck gate era because we all tried out the new theories, changed our setups and worked out if they worked better. Or not.

Look at the newest boat designs, they have all under the floor ballast. With many of these adding extra weight does not help. The manufacturers have done their homework and engineers looked at the way we, with older boats and ones when the whole wakesurf culture began, modified our boats to get ideal setups.

Too much does not equal better and is also unsafe.

[BCRider]

Nickypoo: I'd ask what boat your buddy has but at the same time tell you & him that you are most likely doing yourselves a disservice by equally waiting the rear and using the gate. In my experience this produces a not very nice wave resulting in the wave rolling over on the surf side rather than a nice clean face. This is where Duffy mentioned above as well as myself believe in 100% surfside and about 50% or so on the offside...whatever point the wave cleans up as your drop offside weight. I'd also say that on my VE and some other boats you'd want minimal bow weight riding regular (maybe 0-50%) where as I find goofy my boat loves bow weight to the point that I had a few hundred on top of the bow sac for my wife. I run a 1200lbs MLA sac full on the regular side plus 250lbs hard tank full as well as about another 300lbs of lead. Offside is about 700-800lbs. Bow either right empty or half full depending on the amount of fuel I'm holding. 11.4mph Taps 3-4.

There's 3 things that come in to play with surfing: Wave size, Skill, and the board you're using. Skill can make up for the other two if you know what you are doing. If you don't the larger wave and or board will help compensate for that. I'm 6' 214lbs and I can ride my sons Phase 5 scamp (45") behind my boat. I can't move around much but I can ride it given the wave size.

[duffymahoney]

Here is my basic filling.

Rear Sacks are dual 1850s, bow is dual 450s. Both don't fill to that total size. No clue how much I actually get out of them?

I fill surf side 100% rear (1850). Then bow 100% (900). Offside around 50% (900). I hit fill on all 4 switches, when the bow starting dumping over the side, I stop offside rear. Which ends up about 50%. I then surf, if the wave is washy, I will either dump a little more offside weight or move people till its clean. I also have 200 pounds of lead i usually leave in the bow under the bow filler cushion.

I surf 11.2-12.5 and taps around 3-5 depending. My suck gate is furthest back I can put it (nauticurl) and below the step in the hull.

I move all my jackets and such to the offside locker, they fit with 50% full, I only surf goofy every other time we go out. When I surf goofy, I just move jackets over to the other side, kind of a pain, but I manage.

[Jetdriver]

You definitely need some list even with a shaper to get a great wave in this boat, in fact, I’ve yet to surf a boat that didn’t produce a better wave slightly listed, surf system or not.
I took a little different approach in mine because like you I didn’t want to lose all the under seat storage.
I have 900 lb. bags in my rear lockers that fill them completely, they fill forward to basically where the rear in boat speakers are. I put 200 lbs of lead wake under each rear bag.
I have a 750 lb U shaped fly high bag under the bow cushions (I doubt I get but 600 lbs in it though). I put 100 lbs of lead wake under the bow filler seat.
I kept all the other storage and also removed my under seat cooler to use it for additional storage (the cooler sucked at keeping ice anyway. I keep a small cooler under the helm, plenty room and in the shade).
Surf side rear full, offside 60-70% full, bow bag full for goofy riders and about 50% for regular. TAPS anywhere from 3-5 depending on side and passenger load and 11.6-12.2 depending on passengers as well. I use a shaper of my own design as low and as far back as possible.

[Nbalbo2010]

Thanks again all for the tips and opinions. My current setup that seems to be the best with what I have available to me is as follows:

- 750 lb bags filled 100% in each rear locker
- 6 people in the boat, biased as much as possible towards the surf side. Having a couple people up front definitely helps lengthen the wave and doesn't take away too much height
- TAPS 3-5
- Speed 10-11 (my perfect pass isn't calibrated properly so I don't know the exact speed, I just go two clicks slower than where the wave loses its push)
- Swell wakeshaper right under the step-down in the hull, as far back as possible

Still playing with the TAPS and haven't quite found a consistent setting yet, just seems to depend on how many people and where they are sitting. I have uploaded a couple of videos, the first is with only 3 people on the boat and the second is with 6. Next step is installing the 425 lb bow sac as the bow weight just seems to make a more enjoyable wave that I can move around on a lot more.

I'm trying to get to the point where I have to shift as little weight as possible; it sucks having to move ppl around all the time. Has anybody installed a GSA on the 22ve? I know they're not cheap, but if it fits and makes a difference, I could probably justify it since I got the boat for a pretty good deal.

[BCRider]

I believe there's a couple that have done a 22ve and definitely have on a 24ve as Shaun Mahanay on the Tige Facebook page has a 24ve with GSA. From what I can see It works great but you'll need even more weight than you are running now. You still also have to run listed and I'd possibly suspect slightly different set ups port and starboard. I feel everyone wants a GSA type system so they can just load completely even and switch from side to side but with the VE's in my opinion they still require tweaking port and starboard for the most optimal wave. I also believe that after spending all the money on GSA that you aren't really that far ahead or getting that much more of a better performing wave. Could be wrong, that's just my observation from those that have done it. The results don't look much different from what I can currently get with my suck gate & listed ve.

Also try moving the suck gate forward. I know some say as far back as possible but I disagree here too as I find it then throws the spray across to the surfside wave. By moving it forward (I put about 18") it then sends the spray from the suck gate straight back. I also angle it down.

If you perfect pass isn't working all that well you can also use your phones GPS as a back up.

[chpthril]

Listing takes ballast on one side, whether its people, water or lead. Surf devices are most effective when they are in the water, which is best achieved when the boat displaces more water. To get this, the boat needs ballast.

If your 750# is the 50x20x20, it will net you just north of 600# in those lockers. This will help you better gauge the results.